Spirit of NKS
04-01-2014, 03:13 PM
#7171
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: A320 Left
Posts: 715
Originally Posted by northdakota
I see what you are saying now and I agree somewhat. However just tuning out a vocal minority is not enough. We must counter their arguments and make them defend their positions. If you are talking about PBS or giving up four days off then yes, marginalize because that will never happen here.
04-01-2014, 04:02 PM
#7172
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,577
Originally Posted by northdakota
If you are talking about PBS or giving up four days off then yes, marginalize because that will never happen here.
04-01-2014, 04:07 PM
#7173
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,577
Originally Posted by JoeyMeatballs
-Defined contribution of 16%
-Highest Airbus A-320 rates world wide (considering we are most profitable, we shouldn't accept anything less)
-6 days on? Then 6 days off, 5 on 5 off etc...absolute hard min of 5, the way the contract should have been written
-a real ability to drop if RSVs are available
A couple on my list
-Highest Airbus A-320 rates world wide (considering we are most profitable, we shouldn't accept anything less)
-6 days on? Then 6 days off, 5 on 5 off etc...absolute hard min of 5, the way the contract should have been written
-a real ability to drop if RSVs are available
A couple on my list
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rPLG-svY2w
04-01-2014, 04:49 PM
#7174
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Airplane
Posts: 2,385
Good to see you back around Plane Ramrod, missed your posts and humor.
04-01-2014, 08:53 PM
#7175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2012
Posts: 123
We give up nothing!!! Southwest +1 pay!
We are stupid to think the company can't afford it!
We are stupid to think the company can't afford it!
It is not a statement of worth, frankly I think NK pilots do a much harder job with the flying we have in many instances than WN. It is purely based on the fact that you are trying to suggest we should be Lehman Brothers +1. If you think that is a good strategy let me prepare myself for Ch11 right now.
04-01-2014, 09:32 PM
#7176
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Originally Posted by RP4242
That is a statement that goes against logical economics. And I say that as someone who would love to see everyone including pilots, FAs, rampers, customer service agents and various support people get raises. In fact I think we all deserve it, including you.
It is not a statement of worth, frankly I think NK pilots do a much harder job with the flying we have in many instances than WN. It is purely based on the fact that you are trying to suggest we should be Lehman Brothers +1. If you think that is a good strategy let me prepare myself for Ch11 right now.
It is not a statement of worth, frankly I think NK pilots do a much harder job with the flying we have in many instances than WN. It is purely based on the fact that you are trying to suggest we should be Lehman Brothers +1. If you think that is a good strategy let me prepare myself for Ch11 right now.
2. Pilots don't negotiate for FAs, rampers, and customer service agents. Period
04-01-2014, 11:41 PM
#7177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2012
Posts: 123
1. Why is that against logical economics? Why would you think they can't afford it? Southwest managed to make money and grow while being more or less the only low cost carrier of that time. Very similar to spirit.
First question - In absolute terms SWA cannot afford to pay its work force as much as it does. It is paying salaried and non-salaried employees more to quell labor disruptions of any kind whether that is a strike, attrition or defection to a competitor. As long as SWA had a massive competitive advantage, by and large due to fuel they could afford what they were doing. This advantage does not exist anymore, margins have fallen, productivity has fallen and CASM has risen yet wages have continued to rise across the board without almost any control. I am not even talking about pay cuts or giving an inch up of pay, I am talking about releasing the stranglehold on the operation as a starting point. Right now what you are seeing is a temporary bump in absolute profits (much less margins) due to a capacity constraint, costs hiden by increasing ASMs due to 738/Evolve introductions along with a slew of new fees and devaluations which over time will devalue the whole brand even more. It isnt sustainable as it has nothing to do with their long-term strategic plan. The legacies know it, we know it and it is no secret. There is blood in the water.
Your second question on how I know this - I worked at SWA in a position that was privy to a slew of confidential information including CASM make-up and projection, information that in that short time period has not changed as there has not been any massive development on the CASM or RASM front. The pay in itself in the pilot contract is not even the problem (hell its not even a problem to begin with, that is the wrong word to use there), it is the restrictions that artificially hamper SWA from responding to competition including us. Do not think for one second I am talking here about whether a pilot should have X numbers of days off or sit on short or long call, that is petty kind of stuff.
To your last comment - Hardly, we are not much like Southwest was. We are in a much weaker position, it is important that everyone realize that. Not only are we not the only LCC/ULCC in the market right now we have many disadvantages that SWA did not have in their time of explosive growth:
- Fuel hedging - Does not exist to protect future variable costs. Planning for this is much harder.
- Legacies - Much lower cost and much more flexible now vs. what was back then.
- Our ex-fuel CASM advantage even vs. SWA itself is nowhere near what SWA had vs. competitors historically
- We have no customer service, hard product or operational differentiation that SWA had. In fact this is a detriment as of right now to us. Even a carrier such as FR that we are quasi-based off of has operations that rival Hawaiian in just about every dispatch and on-time metric.
If SWAPA threatened a strike tomorrow and WN management gave a 1st year FO $150/hr to quash it would you say that we need to go to $175 because its SWA +1? Would that be smart? While I am not implying that the numbers are this drastic as of right now they are very well in this category of the equilibrium. BTW if you want a true test of how un-biased I approach this if you told me Delta needs to go SWA +1 I wouldnt even waste time with an answer here for the very reason that Delta actually has the numbers and long-term strategy behind them to shoulder almost any kind of reasonable contract that any of you can dream up of.
I hope you dont feel like this is some sort of attack on pilots, frankly as far as Im concerned its a hilariously small % of the pot when you consider the WN labor pool has unskilled labor getting paid 80k for throwing baggage (4x that of someone who flies a part 121 aircraft) or 10 consultants making 6 figures and doing absolutely nothing to dig that carrier out of the massive hole they are in or souls that are making close to 90k walking around airports system-wide with a walkie talkies and solving problems that a kindergarden teacher for 35k does a better job of.
2. Pilots don't negotiate for FAs, rampers, and customer service agents. Period
Last edited by RP4242; 04-02-2014 at 12:13 AM.
04-02-2014, 03:14 AM
#7178
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 238
Excellent synopsis. Also something to keep in mind. In 1986, Southwest had 79 aircraft and no critical mass either. In 1991 they grew to 124 aircraft. The fuel was cheaper back then but the ancillary fees today come close to equalizing the difference in higher fuel price. IMO, Southwest from 86-91 can be compared to where Spirit is today.
Originally Posted by RP4242
Let me see if I can spell this out for you in simple terms...
First question - In absolute terms SWA cannot afford to pay its work force as much as it does. It is paying salaried and non-salaried employees more to quell labor disruptions of any kind whether that is a strike, attrition or defection to a competitor. As long as SWA had a massive competitive advantage, by and large due to fuel they could afford what they were doing. This advantage does not exist anymore, margins have fallen, productivity has fallen and CASM has risen yet wages have continued to rise across the board without almost any control. I am not even talking about pay cuts or giving an inch up of pay, I am talking about releasing the stranglehold on the operation as a starting point. Right now what you are seeing is a temporary bump in absolute profits (much less margins) due to a capacity constraint, costs hiden by increasing ASMs due to 738/Evolve introductions along with a slew of new fees and devaluations which over time will devalue the whole brand even more. It isnt sustainable as it has nothing to do with their long-term strategic plan. The legacies know it, we know it and it is no secret. There is blood in the water.
Your second question on how I know this - I worked at SWA in a position that was privy to a slew of confidential information including CASM make-up and projection, information that in that short time period has not changed as there has not been any massive development on the CASM or RASM front. The pay in itself in the pilot contract is not even the problem (hell its not even a problem to begin with, that is the wrong word to use there), it is the restrictions that artificially hamper SWA from responding to competition including us. Do not think for one second I am talking here about whether a pilot should have X numbers of days off or sit on short or long call, that is petty kind of stuff.
To your last comment - Hardly, we are not much like Southwest was. We are in a much weaker position, it is important that everyone realize that. Not only are we not the only LCC/ULCC in the market right now we have many disadvantages that SWA did not have in their time of explosive growth:
If SWAPA threatened a strike tomorrow and WN management gave a 1st year FO $150/hr to quash it would you say that we need to go to $175 because its SWA +1? Would that be smart? While I am not implying that the numbers are this drastic as of right now they are very well in this category of the equilibrium. BTW if you want a true test of how un-biased I approach this if you told me Delta needs to go SWA +1 I wouldnt even waste time with an answer here for the very reason that Delta actually has the numbers and long-term strategy behind them to shoulder almost any kind of reasonable contract that any of you can dream up of.
I hope you dont feel like this is some sort of attack on pilots, frankly as far as Im concerned its a hilariously small % of the pot when you consider the WN labor pool has unskilled labor getting paid 80k for throwing baggage (4x that of someone who flies a part 121 aircraft) or 10 consultants making 6 figures and doing absolutely nothing to dig that carrier out of the massive hole they are in or souls that are making close to 90k walking around airports system-wide with a walkie talkies and solving problems that a kindergarden teacher for 35k does a better job of.
Yes, and?
First question - In absolute terms SWA cannot afford to pay its work force as much as it does. It is paying salaried and non-salaried employees more to quell labor disruptions of any kind whether that is a strike, attrition or defection to a competitor. As long as SWA had a massive competitive advantage, by and large due to fuel they could afford what they were doing. This advantage does not exist anymore, margins have fallen, productivity has fallen and CASM has risen yet wages have continued to rise across the board without almost any control. I am not even talking about pay cuts or giving an inch up of pay, I am talking about releasing the stranglehold on the operation as a starting point. Right now what you are seeing is a temporary bump in absolute profits (much less margins) due to a capacity constraint, costs hiden by increasing ASMs due to 738/Evolve introductions along with a slew of new fees and devaluations which over time will devalue the whole brand even more. It isnt sustainable as it has nothing to do with their long-term strategic plan. The legacies know it, we know it and it is no secret. There is blood in the water.
Your second question on how I know this - I worked at SWA in a position that was privy to a slew of confidential information including CASM make-up and projection, information that in that short time period has not changed as there has not been any massive development on the CASM or RASM front. The pay in itself in the pilot contract is not even the problem (hell its not even a problem to begin with, that is the wrong word to use there), it is the restrictions that artificially hamper SWA from responding to competition including us. Do not think for one second I am talking here about whether a pilot should have X numbers of days off or sit on short or long call, that is petty kind of stuff.
To your last comment - Hardly, we are not much like Southwest was. We are in a much weaker position, it is important that everyone realize that. Not only are we not the only LCC/ULCC in the market right now we have many disadvantages that SWA did not have in their time of explosive growth:
- Fuel hedging - Does not exist to protect future variable costs. Planning for this is much harder.
- Legacies - Much lower cost and much more flexible now vs. what was back then.
- Our ex-fuel CASM advantage even vs. SWA itself is nowhere near what SWA had vs. competitors historically
- We have no customer service, hard product or operational differentiation that SWA had. In fact this is a detriment as of right now to us. Even a carrier such as FR that we are quasi-based off of has operations that rival Hawaiian in just about every dispatch and on-time metric.
If SWAPA threatened a strike tomorrow and WN management gave a 1st year FO $150/hr to quash it would you say that we need to go to $175 because its SWA +1? Would that be smart? While I am not implying that the numbers are this drastic as of right now they are very well in this category of the equilibrium. BTW if you want a true test of how un-biased I approach this if you told me Delta needs to go SWA +1 I wouldnt even waste time with an answer here for the very reason that Delta actually has the numbers and long-term strategy behind them to shoulder almost any kind of reasonable contract that any of you can dream up of.
I hope you dont feel like this is some sort of attack on pilots, frankly as far as Im concerned its a hilariously small % of the pot when you consider the WN labor pool has unskilled labor getting paid 80k for throwing baggage (4x that of someone who flies a part 121 aircraft) or 10 consultants making 6 figures and doing absolutely nothing to dig that carrier out of the massive hole they are in or souls that are making close to 90k walking around airports system-wide with a walkie talkies and solving problems that a kindergarden teacher for 35k does a better job of.
Yes, and?
04-02-2014, 05:53 AM
#7179
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
Originally Posted by RP4242
Let me see if I can spell this out for you in simple terms...
First question - In absolute terms SWA cannot afford to pay its work force as much as it does. It is paying salaried and non-salaried employees more to quell labor disruptions of any kind whether that is a strike, attrition or defection to a competitor. As long as SWA had a massive competitive advantage, by and large due to fuel they could afford what they were doing. This advantage does not exist anymore, margins have fallen, productivity has fallen and CASM has risen yet wages have continued to rise across the board without almost any control. I am not even talking about pay cuts or giving an inch up of pay, I am talking about releasing the stranglehold on the operation as a starting point. Right now what you are seeing is a temporary bump in absolute profits (much less margins) due to a capacity constraint, costs hiden by increasing ASMs due to 738/Evolve introductions along with a slew of new fees and devaluations which over time will devalue the whole brand even more. It isnt sustainable as it has nothing to do with their long-term strategic plan. The legacies know it, we know it and it is no secret. There is blood in the water.
Your second question on how I know this - I worked at SWA in a position that was privy to a slew of confidential information including CASM make-up and projection, information that in that short time period has not changed as there has not been any massive development on the CASM or RASM front. The pay in itself in the pilot contract is not even the problem (hell its not even a problem to begin with, that is the wrong word to use there), it is the restrictions that artificially hamper SWA from responding to competition including us. Do not think for one second I am talking here about whether a pilot should have X numbers of days off or sit on short or long call, that is petty kind of stuff.
To your last comment - Hardly, we are not much like Southwest was. We are in a much weaker position, it is important that everyone realize that. Not only are we not the only LCC/ULCC in the market right now we have many disadvantages that SWA did not have in their time of explosive growth:
If SWAPA threatened a strike tomorrow and WN management gave a 1st year FO $150/hr to quash it would you say that we need to go to $175 because its SWA +1? Would that be smart? While I am not implying that the numbers are this drastic as of right now they are very well in this category of the equilibrium. BTW if you want a true test of how un-biased I approach this if you told me Delta needs to go SWA +1 I wouldnt even waste time with an answer here for the very reason that Delta actually has the numbers and long-term strategy behind them to shoulder almost any kind of reasonable contract that any of you can dream up of.
I hope you dont feel like this is some sort of attack on pilots, frankly as far as Im concerned its a hilariously small % of the pot when you consider the WN labor pool has unskilled labor getting paid 80k for throwing baggage (4x that of someone who flies a part 121 aircraft) or 10 consultants making 6 figures and doing absolutely nothing to dig that carrier out of the massive hole they are in or souls that are making close to 90k walking around airports system-wide with a walkie talkies and solving problems that a kindergarden teacher for 35k does a better job of.
Yes, and?
First question - In absolute terms SWA cannot afford to pay its work force as much as it does. It is paying salaried and non-salaried employees more to quell labor disruptions of any kind whether that is a strike, attrition or defection to a competitor. As long as SWA had a massive competitive advantage, by and large due to fuel they could afford what they were doing. This advantage does not exist anymore, margins have fallen, productivity has fallen and CASM has risen yet wages have continued to rise across the board without almost any control. I am not even talking about pay cuts or giving an inch up of pay, I am talking about releasing the stranglehold on the operation as a starting point. Right now what you are seeing is a temporary bump in absolute profits (much less margins) due to a capacity constraint, costs hiden by increasing ASMs due to 738/Evolve introductions along with a slew of new fees and devaluations which over time will devalue the whole brand even more. It isnt sustainable as it has nothing to do with their long-term strategic plan. The legacies know it, we know it and it is no secret. There is blood in the water.
Your second question on how I know this - I worked at SWA in a position that was privy to a slew of confidential information including CASM make-up and projection, information that in that short time period has not changed as there has not been any massive development on the CASM or RASM front. The pay in itself in the pilot contract is not even the problem (hell its not even a problem to begin with, that is the wrong word to use there), it is the restrictions that artificially hamper SWA from responding to competition including us. Do not think for one second I am talking here about whether a pilot should have X numbers of days off or sit on short or long call, that is petty kind of stuff.
To your last comment - Hardly, we are not much like Southwest was. We are in a much weaker position, it is important that everyone realize that. Not only are we not the only LCC/ULCC in the market right now we have many disadvantages that SWA did not have in their time of explosive growth:
- Fuel hedging - Does not exist to protect future variable costs. Planning for this is much harder.
- Legacies - Much lower cost and much more flexible now vs. what was back then.
- Our ex-fuel CASM advantage even vs. SWA itself is nowhere near what SWA had vs. competitors historically
- We have no customer service, hard product or operational differentiation that SWA had. In fact this is a detriment as of right now to us. Even a carrier such as FR that we are quasi-based off of has operations that rival Hawaiian in just about every dispatch and on-time metric.
If SWAPA threatened a strike tomorrow and WN management gave a 1st year FO $150/hr to quash it would you say that we need to go to $175 because its SWA +1? Would that be smart? While I am not implying that the numbers are this drastic as of right now they are very well in this category of the equilibrium. BTW if you want a true test of how un-biased I approach this if you told me Delta needs to go SWA +1 I wouldnt even waste time with an answer here for the very reason that Delta actually has the numbers and long-term strategy behind them to shoulder almost any kind of reasonable contract that any of you can dream up of.
I hope you dont feel like this is some sort of attack on pilots, frankly as far as Im concerned its a hilariously small % of the pot when you consider the WN labor pool has unskilled labor getting paid 80k for throwing baggage (4x that of someone who flies a part 121 aircraft) or 10 consultants making 6 figures and doing absolutely nothing to dig that carrier out of the massive hole they are in or souls that are making close to 90k walking around airports system-wide with a walkie talkies and solving problems that a kindergarden teacher for 35k does a better job of.
Yes, and?
04-02-2014, 06:19 AM
#7180
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Airplane
Posts: 2,385
Originally Posted by JoeyMeatballs
So you are saying we should all be applying to Delta
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