Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Major > Delta
Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? >

Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

Notices

Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

Old 04-19-2015, 09:19 AM
  #181011  
Gets Weekends Off
 
MrBojangles's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 551
Default

Originally Posted by Sink r8 View Post
Cause we asked for it?

We've always been clamoring for more productive days. Guys would get on here, and say that don't care how hard they work when they're at work, they want more days off. Now we got ADG 5:15. We should be thrilled, right?

The problem is, Carmen, or whatever the system is called, isn't going to give you a bunch of credit time for the purpose of commuting. It's going to build a lot of flying into the first and last days of your rotation, especially short rotations, to avoid credit time. It's also going to try to do more duty periods than calendar days in the same rotation.

There is an inherent conflict between getting more minimum credit per day, and making the first and last day commutable. We simply need to know what we want to prioritize. I think most guys want as high a credit time as possible, and keep their fingers crossed that the trips will come out commutable, even though they know there is no logical reason they would.
exactly right-money seems to go above all else with our pilot group. I like getting big checks too, but I also love my time off. I'd like to see a min calendar day of pay so those 3-day trips with 8 hours block day 1, 30 hour layover, then 7:45 block day 3 would actually pay 21 hours or so instead of the 15:45. This company is smart!
MrBojangles is offline  
Old 04-19-2015, 09:27 AM
  #181012  
Doesn't Get Weekends Off
 
RockyBoy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,598
Default

Originally Posted by Sink r8 View Post
Cause we asked for it?

We've always been clamoring for more productive days. Guys would get on here, and say that don't care how hard they work when they're at work, they want more days off. Now we got ADG 5:15. We should be thrilled, right?

The problem is, Carmen, or whatever the system is called, isn't going to give you a bunch of credit time for the purpose of commuting. It's going to build a lot of flying into the first and last days of your rotation, especially short rotations, to avoid credit time. It's also going to try to do more duty periods than calendar days in the same rotation.

There is an inherent conflict between getting more minimum credit per day, and making the first and last day commutable. We simply need to know what we want to prioritize. I think most guys want as high a credit time as possible, and keep their fingers crossed that the trips will come out commutable, even though they know there is no logical reason they would.
The problem is that we simply don't get a high enough hourly rate. If we all could make more than an average middle class income we wouldn't need to work as much as we do.

Back in the day it was a full month to do 3 4-day domestic trips. Now you have to do 4. Also those 3 trips were typically commutable, now the 4 we have to do start at 0500 and get done at 2000.

Every contract we get "better" work rules, but the company exploits them to make them cost neutral and we get screwed.

Won't be long until we are all doing 4 5-day trips a month to make what our neighbors who manage Wal-Mart make.

How about we stop getting more "efficient" work rules and just make them pay us in rates? I would rather do 3 4-day trips a month than 4 5-day trips a month for the same pay.
RockyBoy is offline  
Old 04-19-2015, 09:34 AM
  #181013  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Free Bird's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
Default

Originally Posted by RockyBoy View Post

Back in the day it was a full month to do 3 4-day domestic trips. Now you have to do 4. Also those 3 trips were typically commutable, now the 4 we have to do start at 0500 and get done at 2000.

How about we stop getting more "efficient" work rules and just make them pay us in rates? I would rather do 3 4-day trips a month than 4 5-day trips a month for the same pay.
Good points.

Imo, being on the bottom end of any domestic category strongly resembles a regional airline lifestyle. I think captains going over 10,000 at an airline of 12,500 pilots reflects that.
Free Bird is offline  
Old 04-19-2015, 09:38 AM
  #181014  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2012
Position: MD musical chairs
Posts: 239
Default

Originally Posted by RockyBoy View Post
Every contract we get "better" work rules, but the company exploits them to make them cost neutral and we get screwed.

Won't be long until we are all doing 4 5-day trips a month to make what our neighbors who manage Wal-Mart make.

How about we stop getting more "efficient" work rules and just make them pay us in rates? I would rather do 3 4-day trips a month than 4 5-day trips a month for the same pay.
"Better" is true in some areas but debatable in others. Things like increasing the TLV, changing the bid calendar for the summer months, allowing ALV +15 were sold for rock bottom dollar. They all add up to the same thing, a lot more time spent a work and a little bit extra money at the end of the month...in the end it's really not a "raise."
The Cavalier is offline  
Old 04-19-2015, 09:59 AM
  #181015  
veut gagner à la loterie
 
forgot to bid's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Default

Originally Posted by Free Bird View Post
Good points.

Imo, being on the bottom end of any domestic category strongly resembles a regional airline lifestyle. I think captains going over 10,000 at an airline of 12,500 pilots reflects that.
That. That right there is a great point.

moral of the story is touching how much we are paid or scheduling in any way to get someone to their happy spot and you ruin someone elses happy spot.

Especially if it's a cost neutral adjustment.
forgot to bid is offline  
Old 04-19-2015, 10:46 AM
  #181016  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,522
Default

Originally Posted by Big E 757 View Post
You are correct, as soon as we got 5:15 ADG, the 4 day, commutable trips pretty much disappeared in DTW...at least for me at 60% down the list of ER FO's. I either had to do GRU's or 5 day trips that ended with a red eye. I have since, switched to ATL because it appeared at the time, that there were many 4 day, commutable trips. Now, with this letter, I am afraid it might have been for nothing.

I keep hearing from the company that they're trying to decrease credit time but one look at a 73N bid pack and it looks like they haven't optimized the trips in that category yet...4 day trips with 13 hours of flying and DH's all over the place.
While its partly ADG/credit driven, a huge part of it is our million fleet types compounded with marketing's blank check to route equipment anywhere under any circumstance to save/make one penny per flight.

When you have routes where the company switches similar or even same sized planes around regardless (irregardless?) of pairing considerations and then hands off the flying to build pairings, degraded QOL is going to be the result. Ironically that pushes us to demand (rightfully so) better work rules and rigs (aka financial consequences) for QOL degradations in the first place. The company may then turn around and point to the very QOL hits that they created and say that (and the drastically increased training bubble) drives poor productivity because we're all sitting around at the airport/hotels and they want other offsets elsewhere to make up for the supposed lack of productivity.
gloopy is offline  
Old 04-19-2015, 11:13 AM
  #181017  
Works Every Weekend
 
Check Essential's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Default

The QOL ship has sailed.

There are simply not enough guys who care about quality of life.
Time off has clearly become secondary among Delta pilots.
The majority wants to work to the FARs.

The best thing we could possibly do would be to bring back some sort of cap.
Very few want that though. They see it as a pay cut if they can only fly 75 hours instead of 90.

The fact that they could be making more and working less by faster advancement to captain or larger equipment doesn't seem to matter. They somehow don't believe it.

As mentioned by someone earlier, the people this is really killing is the commuters. I don't see how anybody commutes that isn't VERY senior in category. Coming in the day prior, even occasionally, is just such a huge chunk of time out of your life. Nobody seems to realize that you are essentially WORKING during that time. For a payrate of $0. Plus you pay the hotel or crashpad.

BRING BACK A CAP !!
Check Essential is offline  
Old 04-19-2015, 11:24 AM
  #181018  
Straight QOL, homie
 
Purple Drank's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
Default

I'm completely on board with a cap.
Purple Drank is offline  
Old 04-19-2015, 11:24 AM
  #181019  
veut gagner à la loterie
 
forgot to bid's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Default

Originally Posted by Check Essential View Post
The QOL ship has sailed.

There are simply not enough guys who care about quality of life.
Time off has clearly become secondary among Delta pilots.
The majority wants to work to the FARs.

The best thing we could possibly do would be to bring back some sort of cap.
Very few want that though. They see it as a pay cut if they can only fly 75 hours instead of 90.

The fact that they could be making more and working less by faster advancement to captain or larger equipment doesn't seem to matter. They somehow don't believe it.

As mentioned by someone earlier, the people this is really killing is the commuters. I don't see how anybody commutes that isn't VERY senior in category. Coming in the day prior, even occasionally, is just such a huge chunk of time out of your life. Nobody seems to realize that you are essentially WORKING during that time. For a payrate of $0. Plus you pay the hotel or crashpad.

BRING BACK A CAP !!
Here's a crazy idea.

Let people drop a turn. Make thing is more commutable but the catch, someone has to first pick up the turn AND the turn is only paid in block hours.

Disclaimer
I thought that up on my own and on the fly. No research or thought was put into it. It really is just throwing something against the wall.
forgot to bid is offline  
Old 04-19-2015, 11:40 AM
  #181020  
Works Every Weekend
 
Check Essential's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Default

Originally Posted by Purple Drank View Post
I'm completely on board with a cap.
With a bow wave and spillback system.

We used to be all about "more money AND more time off".
We've somehow lost sight of the latter.
Check Essential is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
On Autopilot
Regional
22594
11-05-2021 07:03 AM
AeroCrewSolut
Delta
153
08-14-2018 12:18 PM
Bill Lumberg
Major
71
06-13-2012 08:36 AM
Quagmire
Major
253
04-16-2011 06:19 AM
JiffyLube
Major
12
03-07-2008 04:27 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices