That's the point I'm trying to make. You can select certain stats all day long to make the case against pay restoration. I would expect Swelbar to present stats that can be used to justify lowering labor costs. That is his specialty, and he does it pretty well. I just don't think it's in our best interest for you (or any of us) to take that ball and run with it. Let's spend more time making the case for restoration and less time spouting management's case against it. Seems like that would be more appropriate for what we're trying to achieve, don't you think?
The problem is not with how they arrive at the data, but what the airlines submit on their Form 41. I have been trying to get a true breakout of our augment ops as well as stage length for aircraft type, and to date no one will has that information in a public source.
In response to you last point, it is my belief that adjusted data will make our case. Form 41 data is where the problem is. Now you can take a bid package and do the math yourself but that is time consuming. I can venture to guess what it is base on our summer 2011 block hrs and active pilots that were line flying, but alas some of that data is not publicly disclosed, so posting that info in a no, no. ( I will say that my rough math puts our block hrs per pilot over that of a SWA pilot)
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That's the point I'm trying to make. You can select certain stats all day long to make the case against pay restoration. I would expect Swelbar to present stats that can be used to justify lowering labor costs. That is his specialty, and he does it pretty well. I just don't think it's in our best interest for you (or any of us) to take that ball and run with it. Let's spend more time making the case for restoration and less time spouting management's case against it. Seems like that would be more appropriate for what we're trying to achieve, don't you think?
You mean like when SWAPA put together a 'welcome packet' for AT guys?
You mean like when SWAPA put together a 'welcome packet' for AT guys?
Here are the stats SWAPA chose to include. I think they are particularly relevant. You see it differently?
_________________________________________________
• Industry leading B737 Pay Rates. SWA Captains average over $230,000 and First Officers average over $140,000.
• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged 105 “Trips For Pay” (TFP) per month, or about 1260 TFP per year.
• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged just over 18 days off per month.
• Per Diem rates are among the highest in the industry: $2.15 per hour away from base.
• SWAPA considers our Duty and Trip Rigs to be the strongest in the industry, as they protect pilot productivity and efficiency.
• Minimum Daily guarantee is 6.5 TFP; Ex., a 3-day trip pays a minimum of 19.5 TFP.
• Duty hour rig is .74 TFP per hour, minimum.
• Reserve guarantee is 90 TFP per month; but actual
months pay average around 105 TFP.
You can recapture flying and still work less but we'd have to god forbid hire more pilots.....
I understand that I am a Johnny-come-lately around DAL, but I am dismayed at the number of folks that are thrilled to work on their days off at straight pay......recently, another poster threw out ALV+15 as an average for our crews.
This is a bullet to the head of our QOL, manning, upgrades , etc. We are our own worst enemies in that respect, and that metric will never change until WE change.
For you young'uns, this is a marathon, not a sprint. 18 days of reserve for 70 hours is quite enough........Scope, work rules, then rates.
Interesting. When I brought up the concept of LGBP, some of the resistance I got was that it would hamper guys from bidding a bigger airplane in order to make more money. For you to do what you want to do, we would have to institute a hard hourly cap again, because guys have become accustomed to flying 80-85-90 hours a month. If you think for one minute that when we get a raise that will allow you to make $200K in 75 hours that guys won't work 90 hours and make $240K, you are delusional.
Hey now Capt. Be nice
Why the hell would any one in their right mind want to work above 75-80 hours?? Let alone above 70? I dont care what airplane I fly, as long as I get paid well and can afford 1 Cadillac a month.
I want to work less or about the same and make more. THere is a way we can achieve that, I know it.
TEN
PS. How many hard hours does a SWA 737 Capt. fly to make 300k?
How many hard hour does a SWA 737 Fo fly to make 180K?
I understand that I am a Johnny-come-lately around DAL, but I am dismayed at the number of folks that are thrilled to work on their days off at straight pay......recently, another poster threw out ALV+15 as an average for our crews.
This is a bullet to the head of our QOL, manning, upgrades , etc. We are our own worst enemies in that respect, and that metric will never change until WE change.
For you young'uns, this is a marathon, not a sprint. 18 days of reserve for 70 hours is quite enough........Scope, work rules, then rates.
Nomex on,
BG
From the what I can tell, it is not that people are "thrilled" to work that amount of time. It comes down to a 42% pay cut and the simple fact that they got to pay the bills. To add insult to injury most now have kids in college to add to that pay cut. Yep, it's ugly.
I think everyone would like work rules that would allow the pay they want with the time off they want.
Also, most of the "young'uns of which you refer to have been doing this gig for over 15 years. We are agree with ya.
I understand that I am a Johnny-come-lately around DAL, but I am dismayed at the number of folks that are thrilled to work on their days off at straight pay......recently, another poster threw out ALV+15 as an average for our crews.
This is a bullet to the head of our QOL, manning, upgrades , etc. We are our own worst enemies in that respect, and that metric will never change until WE change.
For you young'uns, this is a marathon, not a sprint. 18 days of reserve for 70 hours is quite enough........Scope, work rules, then rates.
Nomex on,
BG
In honor of BG's spot on post:
Last edited by forgot to bid; 09-06-2011 at 07:01 PM.
From the what I can tell, it is not that people are "thrilled" to work that amount of time. It comes down to a 42% pay cut and the simple fact that they got to pay the bills. To add insult to injury most now have kids in college to add to that pay cut. Yep, it's ugly.
I think everyone would like work rules that would allow the pay they want with the time off they want.
Also, most of the "young'uns of which you refer to have been doing this gig for over 15 years. We are agree with ya.
I wonder, how about just FedEx rates with caps on flying but better credit rules and increase reserve min to 75.
FedEx narrowbody pay nearly equals SWA pay but of course they also have WB pay scales. They're not restoration but make it up in credit, take it from 5.15 to 6.30 but cap the flying. Just throwing that out, I'm not going to run the macroeconomics spreadsheet on it but when it comes to the staffing formula screw with the credit and cap until you achieve no loss staffing.
Also, the trip parking. Any correlation to the MD's off the 777 which is the type of category likely to be playing the trip parking game?
Quote:
Originally Posted by contrails
Incorrect.
Ask any SWA pilot what a typical monthly schedule looks like without sick time or vacation or any leave of absence.
From the conversations I've had on PM with SWA pilots I have to agree with contrails.
The $25K in one month salary I mentioned before again was this: "16 days reserve, about 86 hours flown, no vacation or silly business, over $25,000 flight pay only (not including 401k, profit sharing, blah blah blah.)"
For the math challenged like me, $25K/mo is $300K in a year. Above the average quoted to the FL pilots.
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