Let's say 100 pilots are supposed to reach 65 each year for the next 5 years. All 500 of them retire tomorrow. The company doesn't replace any of them. That seems to be the case. We are shrinking. Now the remaining oldest pilot on the list isn't suppose to retire until 2017. Our steady flow of retirements just got further away. How many pilots behind you is more important than how many in front of you. I would like to see us hire before guys ahead of me retire.
And this is what the company wants, the steady flow of massive retirements to be as far away as possible. By offering early outs they pull some of the guys now rather than later when they won't have the capacity to replace them.
However, for this to be good for us the next three years or so, they need to hire also or we just see higher paying jobs disappear and not be backfilled like we've seen on the 777 and 747 the last couple of years. So it's good, but not good at the same time.
^^^^^^ Eggggsssxactly! Spot on. I remember when I came back in 2008 and DAL asked me to monitor a few Indoc classes to get the drill down again. You should have seen the palpable angst in the room when the new hires realized there were other guys sitting there (3 of us to be exact) who were coming back and assuming our seniority on top of them. We'd killed their cat. sheesh. This industry.
That's funny, because one of my good buddies was a furlough returnee who was in my new-hire class. I was very humbled when getting back to LAX he checked his V-file and received his 1-year and 5-year pin...
I have been mostly fortunate in this career and respect that there are those who have endured hardships I hope to never know.
Its exactly because of those experiences, not despite them that seniority progression is something to actively pursue istead of just "hoping things work out ok"
What? How does that get us further away? In my world, 500 senior guys leaving makes 500+ guys move up.
If those 500 positions are phased away and/or outsourced for "capacity discipline" or whatnot. If the company got rid of everything except one MD88 and they only needed 2 pilots total, you could be number two on the list and it wouldn't really matter much.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetg
That's funny, because one of my good buddies was a furlough returnee who was in my new-hire class. I was very humbled when getting back to LAX he checked his V-file and received his 1-year and 5-year pin...
I have been mostly fortunate in this career and respect that there are those who have endured hardships I hope to never know.
Its exactly because of those experiences, not despite them that seniority progression is something to actively pursue istead of just "hoping things work out ok"
Cheers
George
Hey George,
I'm all for seniority progression and I know that about 85% of us thought we'd be progressing much faster than we have. I certainly never anticipated leaving the career I had in the Air Force and 20 years of flying heavies internationally for being a narrow body FO for the rest of my life.
I think the only point I'm making is that career expectations are exactly that...expectations. Nobody could have anticipated the effects that 9/11 had on this industry prior to that day, nor the RJ explosion that helped many get the experience they needed to reach the majors only to now understand the detrimental affects that industry philosophy has had, nor the economic down turns of the last 4 years.
It's not the older guys fault that they lost their pensions and now have to work until they're 65 or 70. I can guarantee that almost all of those guys would be long gone if they could afford to.
No, what we're looking at is the reality that this career ain't the salad days of Pan Am or TWA. Thats gone.
I also returned to my v-file and had my 1-year and 5-year pins waiting for me. I wasn't humbled. I was ****ed. I really hadn't done anything to earn them. I'm making up for that now. And I want my company to reward me for my loyalty, hard work, and safe and skillful flying. That's all.
^^^^^^ Eggggsssxactly! Spot on. I remember when I came back in 2008 and DAL asked me to monitor a few Indoc classes to get the drill down again. You should have seen the palpable angst in the room when the new hires realized there were other guys sitting there (3 of us to be exact) who were coming back and assuming our seniority on top of them. We'd killed their cat. sheesh. This industry.
Complete opposite of what I witnessed in the same situation.
500 guys retiring in front of us will never be a bad thing. What it does is gets guys out so that instead of 2017 for the ball to start rolling it happens just that much sooner. At some point they'll have to start adding pilots and grow or go out of business.
Uh oh. Somewhere on the fourth floor someone just said:
I'm all for seniority progression and I know that about 85% of us thought we'd be progressing much faster than we have. I certainly never anticipated leaving the career I had in the Air Force and 20 years of flying heavies internationally for being a narrow body FO for the rest of my life.
I think the only point I'm making is that career expectations are exactly that...expectations. Nobody could have anticipated the effects that 9/11 had on this industry prior to that day, nor the RJ explosion that helped many get the experience they needed to reach the majors only to now understand the detrimental affects that industry philosophy has had, nor the economic down turns of the last 4 years.
It's not the older guys fault that they lost their pensions and now have to work until they're 65 or 70. I can guarantee that almost all of those guys would be long gone if they could afford to.
No, what we're looking at is the reality that this career ain't the salad days of Pan Am or TWA. Thats gone.
I also returned to my v-file and had my 1-year and 5-year pins waiting for me. I wasn't humbled. I was ****ed. I really hadn't done anything to earn them. I'm making up for that now. And I want my company to reward me for my loyalty, hard work, and safe and skillful flying. That's all.
Excellent post Buzz, very insightful imo. I'm also a member of the get 2 pins at a time club. It's a club that I hope more Delta pilots will not be joining anytime soon. I do believe that better times are in our future.
You're right, I've never had to swallow that sandwich, at least for 5 years. Hundreds of other Delta pilots and I had the cake walk of a 5 year furlough. The last 5 years I've been so insanely senior that I've had the privilege of only working about 85% of weekends and holidays, all on the mighty maddog.
I guess I've never really reflected on smooth my career has been to this point. More to the point, the last 5 years have been hard on most of this seniority list. We all knew what we were getting into by coming to Delta. Roughly 1,000 folks were furloughed following 9-11, I don't blame anyone, it's what comes along with this job. you guys volunteered to work here, sorry it hasn't worked out for you like you planned.
The point those of us who are saying the buckets need to be adjusted to something less than the current values isn't that we aren't getting what we expected in this career. While not to your level, we have experienced that as well. We've gotten a merger, we've had the great recession, we've got high oil prices, etc., etc., and we're the bottom of the bottom. No, what makes this different is that it's our own representation twisting the knife. This is like bread and circuses. How about working to get back to everything that was given up, and not just seniority reserve? I say put your energy and determination to getting restoration back. But you won't even hear that said. But throw some junior reserves under the bus? Can do easy.
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