Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Folks, ACL65 showed you were the smoke screen could likely be generated from. Make sure you "get" this post. The Company is currently hard limited to 255 total large (70 or 76 seat) RJ's. If they get a 76 seater, they have to park a nearly new 70 seater. That's a $1.8 billion dollar problem for Delta Air Lines and a "opportunity" for ALPA. It is leverage. ACL explains how this will be spun as "allowing additional 70 seaters" when in reality, it is allowing additional 76 seaters without the penalty of having to pull other RJ's out of service. Figure the total large RJ fleet size goes to 315'ish under this scenario (?? on mergers and other impossible to quantify extrapolations).

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Think of this for a second:

Based on the information people seem to be connecting, lets look at a small jet scope rewrite like this :

We will not be allowing more "76 seat jets". What will transpire is the allowing of the current 102 70 seat jets to remain and Dal not have to return them to bring on a 76 sestet as we grow with a small jet order. The 76 seat flying will be tied to mainline growth both up and down but the 70 seaters will be allowed to operate under the DCI banner and not be returned. We may see a hard cap on all dci flying as well. It gets rids us of the three for one, gets rid of the company keeping large rj's after mainline shrinks and may tie block hrs on these jets to the block hrs or asm's of mainline.

I am just thinking here but after talking to the pilots rinning my phone off the hook and reading everything I have read, this seems to be a logical result we will see wrt to small jet flying.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by LandGreen2

I bet if we started a new thread here on APC (so it is easy to find for all); had one of the resident English gifted students write a generic letter that could be easily cut/copy/pasted/emailed; many letters would FLOOD our reps Inboxes this weekend!

They might get quite a few letters from other airline guys worried about a scope giveaway too!

Originally Posted by Flamer

I can't believe we are trying to figure out how much worse one section of our concessionary contract is going to be when submitted as a TA...When our company is slated to make nearly 2 billion this year.

Just say that out loud a few times.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Ok Bar now add this in with code share, JV, holding company and transnational protection that we currently do not have and indicated we wanted in the opener. Add a hard cap on the number of DCI jets. Not sure where 315 comes from but lets say that is the hard cap. That cuts DCI by 50%. How does that whole section one sit with you, even if they tie 76 set flying to mainline block hrs and 70 seat(actually66) are effectively a giveme but part of the total hull count?

I am just curious.

Originally Posted by Ferd149

Bar, I'm assuming the "ratios" are block hours or utilization rates? What is the history about this from C2K that you talked about in a previous post?

Ferd

Originally Posted by TheManager

Guessed wrong boy scout. I've been doing this airline rodeo for longer than you. Even have worked in ALPA and seen how other MEC's are run.

I understand that all it takes is 50% + 1.

I also back ALPA and not DPA. I've made that clear.

But myself and many others have ALPA on the short leash.

Oh, and I have more than one item that I'd vote no for. I have listed them here before.

I have seen your types before T. Fearful and overwrought with apprehension. They have past the apex of their airline career and are headed toward the twilight of it. In your case,this is probably the only job outside of working for Uncle Sam that you have ever had which is further limiting. Folks like this are traditionally the epitome of single issue voters. They want the $ now, quick before more years slip past and retirement arrives.

Scope, work rules, reserve, sick leave, disability, medical coverage.... won't be around long enough to be bothered with that.

Originally Posted by fly2002

Hi tsquare,
I'll try to respond as best as I can. I agree almost entirely with the first part of your post. There are a lot of factors working against the piloting profession, but falling for the same tricks again and again is intolerable. Simply put, negotiating further scope erosion given our current financial climate would be extremely short sighted. In fact a disaster. Delta has, in it's 80+ year history never made more money, and during this time we sell more delta pilot jobs?

I've been an ALPA negotiator myself and have a little over 2 years experience on ALPA's board of directors. From my vantage point,as an outsider of course, it looks like the negotiating committee is being out maneuvered rhetorically. Ill try my best to explain. The company is presenting a very smart proposal on their end. Their smart enough to realize that they can use short term greed to get what they want in the end. They have a master plan and our negotiators SHOULD have known what they were after.

Its like chess....you look multiple moves down the road and your thinking of what your opponent will do.....you already know your own reaction to what their move will be. Their goal is to outsource everything under the sun and have low pilot pay. So ask yourself....how would you do that if you were the manager?

If I was on the other side of the table I would offer a pay raise and a small scope concession. Offer a good raise! Cloud their judgement. I need to get as close as I can on scope to those Boeing 737's and A-320's. I'll sell them on the "ratio" factor for now....I'll use the numbers to lie and mask my true intentions. They'll also feel like good employees for "helping" me get rid of those pesky 50 seaters. What those pilots don't realize is that they've sold, yet again something that they'll never have the power to recapture...scope...their own jobs. In turn I've given them something that blows like the wind.....a pay rate. Unlike the pilots, I'm looking 15-20 years down the road. These chumps are just looking at the next 5 years tops! Once things go south financially in 2018 I can take back that pay rate and I will have achieved everything I wanted. In fact what I'm really after is their queen.....those 737's and A320's. Once I have that it will represent over 80% of the total airline. It's only a matter of time until checkmate. Times become tough....I simply lock out the 777 pilots who are too small in number to defend themselves and I hire easy replacements =Checkmate

Tsquare....I'm long winded but that's what our negotiators should have seen sitting down at the table. In fact they should be smart enough to realize the exact opposite is what we need. Scope has to come first. No scope no power. If ALPA was truly interested in restoring pay they would realize that scope has to come first, but they've created their own monster because now they can't do that. IE dual representation conflict and now mainline pilots that want instant gratification. What would the pilots say to no raises for 10 years because we have to undo all off your past screw ups? Wouldn't go well for the representation.

Ok t square. There it is.