More Delta Scope Relaxation?
03-20-2009, 08:13 PM
#1
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More Delta Scope Relaxation?
I just got off the phone with a buddy of mine at RAH, who says that a memo came out yesterday that says that effective April 1st, RAH will be changing the MTOW on their Delta 175s to 89,000 lbs. My understanding of Section 40 of the Delta CBA only allowed the CPZ (and specifically the CPZ, not just 36 of them) 175s. They said they were doing this in accordance with 175 Service Bulletin 170-00-0016, and that another memo would come out when the entire fleet was modified.
Wouldn't that be a scope violation on RAHs part, and wouldn't there have to be a new LOA on the part of DALPA BEFORE the announcement from RAH? My understanding of the Scope agreement with the No Furlough Clause was simply to bring the cap up to the current levels of 76 seaters, and had nothing to do with the weight limitation of 86,000lbs.
Any input on this will be appreciated!
Wouldn't that be a scope violation on RAHs part, and wouldn't there have to be a new LOA on the part of DALPA BEFORE the announcement from RAH? My understanding of the Scope agreement with the No Furlough Clause was simply to bring the cap up to the current levels of 76 seaters, and had nothing to do with the weight limitation of 86,000lbs.
Any input on this will be appreciated!
03-21-2009, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by boilerpilot
I just got off the phone with a buddy of mine at RAH, who says that a memo came out yesterday that says that effective April 1st, RAH will be changing the MTOW on their Delta 175s to 89,000 lbs. My understanding of Section 40 of the Delta CBA only allowed the CPZ (and specifically the CPZ, not just 36 of them) 175s. They said they were doing this in accordance with 175 Service Bulletin 170-00-0016, and that another memo would come out when the entire fleet was modified.
Even if they remained in compliance with the DAL code, now that Midwest has a code share with DAL, and RAH is flying 175's there, those acft could pose a violation.
Last edited by Fly4hire; 03-21-2009 at 04:20 AM.
03-21-2009, 04:37 AM
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RAHPilot,
What version of the E175 do you guys fly under the code share with DAL/NWA? It looks like the STD and LR versions are OK, but the AR version, with its max gross weight of 89,000 would be a scope violation.
Do you guys fly that version?
PG
What version of the E175 do you guys fly under the code share with DAL/NWA? It looks like the STD and LR versions are OK, but the AR version, with its max gross weight of 89,000 would be a scope violation.
Do you guys fly that version?
PG
03-21-2009, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Fly4hire
Anyone have a copy of the memo?
Even if they remained in compliance with the DAL code, now that Midwest has a code share with DAL, and RAH is flying 175's there, those acft could pose a violation.
Even if they remained in compliance with the DAL code, now that Midwest has a code share with DAL, and RAH is flying 175's there, those acft could pose a violation.
03-21-2009, 05:21 AM
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I don't see it as scope relaxation. If the FAA says you need to change the weight, that's fine. You just can't operate those aircraft with Delta code anymore. That doesn't stop you from flying them for anyone else that will let you. Or starting your own code ala Expressjet or Independance.
Now, if management came to DALPA and asked for relief and we stupidly gave it to them, than then THAT would be scope relaxation. Realistically, it will probably have to be settled in court. Which contract has more juice, RAH's with Delta or the CBA?
Now, if management came to DALPA and asked for relief and we stupidly gave it to them, than then THAT would be scope relaxation. Realistically, it will probably have to be settled in court. Which contract has more juice, RAH's with Delta or the CBA?
03-21-2009, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Fly4hire
Anyone have a copy of the memo?
Even if they remained in compliance with the DAL code, now that Midwest has a code share with DAL, and RAH is flying 175's there, those acft could pose a violation.
Even if they remained in compliance with the DAL code, now that Midwest has a code share with DAL, and RAH is flying 175's there, those acft could pose a violation.
RAH operates 170s for Midwest. Those planes will not play into this.
03-21-2009, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Killer51883
wasnt the delta scope all based off of seats and not weight? i could be wrong though.
PG
03-21-2009, 08:50 AM
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The scope is both seats and Max Gross Takeoff Weight. I'll quote Denny Crane as he posted this in the "New No-Furlough Clause DAL" thread (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...use-dal-4.html).
Justdoinmyjob:
My understanding from the memo is that it specifically says that these aircraft will be operating for Delta Connection. Also, it's a service bulletin that allows the mod, it's not an AD that requires it, so it's purely an option that allows the company to get more range out of the aircraft, because it allows for more fuel (I think my friend said around 18,500 lbs with full pax and full bags, somewhere around an 1800 nm range). I think CHQ did a mod like this with some of their EMB-145LRs, but I could be mistaken. It seems to me like the scope is pretty clear about the weight limit, and specifically mentions 36 175s owned/operated by NWA.
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
40. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
c. one of up to 255 jet aircraft configured with 51-70 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“70-seat jets”), and
d. one of up to 120 jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”). The number of 76-seat jets may be increased above 120 by three 76-seat jets for each aircraft above the number of aircraft in the baseline fleet operated by the Company (in service, undergoing maintenance and operational spares) as of CBAID. The baseline fleet number will be 440+N, in which N is the number of aircraft (in service, undergoing maintenance and operational spares but not including permitted aircraft types) added to the Company’s baseline fleet from NWA. The number and type of all aircraft in the Company’s fleet on CBAID will be provided to the Association. The number of 70-seat jets plus 76-seat jets permitted by Section 1 B. 40. may not exceed 255.
Exception: Up to the 36 EMB-175s that were operated and/or ordered by Northwest prior to CBAID may continue to be operated with up to a maximum gross takeoff weight of 89,000 pounds.
c. one of up to 255 jet aircraft configured with 51-70 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“70-seat jets”), and
d. one of up to 120 jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”). The number of 76-seat jets may be increased above 120 by three 76-seat jets for each aircraft above the number of aircraft in the baseline fleet operated by the Company (in service, undergoing maintenance and operational spares) as of CBAID. The baseline fleet number will be 440+N, in which N is the number of aircraft (in service, undergoing maintenance and operational spares but not including permitted aircraft types) added to the Company’s baseline fleet from NWA. The number and type of all aircraft in the Company’s fleet on CBAID will be provided to the Association. The number of 70-seat jets plus 76-seat jets permitted by Section 1 B. 40. may not exceed 255.
Exception: Up to the 36 EMB-175s that were operated and/or ordered by Northwest prior to CBAID may continue to be operated with up to a maximum gross takeoff weight of 89,000 pounds.
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
I don't see it as scope relaxation. If the FAA says you need to change the weight, that's fine. You just can't operate those aircraft with Delta code anymore. That doesn't stop you from flying them for anyone else that will let you. Or starting your own code ala Expressjet or Independance.
Now, if management came to DALPA and asked for relief and we stupidly gave it to them, than then THAT would be scope relaxation. Realistically, it will probably have to be settled in court. Which contract has more juice, RAH's with Delta or the CBA?
Now, if management came to DALPA and asked for relief and we stupidly gave it to them, than then THAT would be scope relaxation. Realistically, it will probably have to be settled in court. Which contract has more juice, RAH's with Delta or the CBA?
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