The loss of a vertical stabilizer alone does not make an aircraft crash. Jack Northrop's flying wing from the 1940's is proof that you don't need a vertical fin.
It was probably a chain of presently unknown events that led to the inflight break up of the aircraft.
Carl
Carl, your profile shows you as a 747-400 Capt - does your 747 suddenly grow split ailerons, differential thrust (differential at a rate faster than you can reliably control or faster than the engines can usually spin up), differential ailerons, or any other alternate means of controlling yaw?
The flying wing as well as the current B-2 don't have NO yaw control, they have alternate means of yaw control. As a matter of fact, with no vert stab or means of yaw control, the simple movement of the ailerons and their subsequent adverse yaw are likely to start a catastrophic sequence of aircraft movements - especially in turbulent conditions.
For what it is worth, the B-52 did not lose its ENTIRE vert stab, just most of it - there was still some structure remaining providing some level of stability. The B-52 outboard engines are also far away from the fuselage, giving them a little more usefulness as yaw control with smaller throttle movements (the motors were also not the high-bypass fan motors of today and the thrust response at high RPM's was a little quicker). I doubt that the engines alone would have been sufficient had no vert stab remained.
The last civilian aircraft that lost the vert stab (prior to the AA accident in 2001) was a 747 that crashed in Tokyo. The aircraft was able to fly for a while, but was never in control enough to return for landing.
I won't change your views. Old school guys have a hard time with globalization.
I'm sure Boeing has regrets about "their" handling of the program.
BTW, I haven't seen much change lately in Boeing's approved vendor list. Speaks volumes doesn't it. Whoever is screwing up isn't getting the boot. Wait............can Boeing give Boeing the boot?
Your idea of building more in-house would only serve to increase competitive advantage at Airbus.
Funny how they just rolled out an A320 produced in China. Why not just make them all in Toulouse?
Makes you wonder doesn't it?
Oligopolistic firms are heavily influenced by each other. And, for good reason!
You don't have to like outsourcing to survive. But, you do have to be good at it!
Peace.
Al
Here I was reading this thread enjoying the sparing between you and Carl, never intending on making a post; then you say this!
Check your six and look at the US economy. Globalization and outsourcing has nearly bankrupt this country (Obama has the hammer for the coffin nail).
As my point of view was hammered in B-school I still maintain that GLOBALIZATION SUCKS for the US of A.
Here I was reading this thread enjoying the sparing between you and Carl, never intending on making a post; then you say this!
Check your six and look at the US economy. Globalization and outsourcing has nearly bankrupt this country (Obama has the hammer for the coffin nail).
As my point of view was hammered in B-school I still maintain that GLOBALIZATION SUCKS for the US of A.
The US economy?
Take off your blinders and look at the worldwide economy!
Think the US is the only nation that's engaged in FDI inflows and outflows???
The current situation is not merely a result of globalization! It goes a lot deeper than that.
Better start warming up to it. Globalization is here to stay!
We have a system of unipolarity at the moment with the US being a hegemon. We may see a system of multipolarity in years to come but I think it will take a long time.
We're talking about Boeing on this thread. Ever wonder how many airframes Boeing would have sold from 9/11 to today if all they could count on was US airlines?
Not enough to sustain the firm!
No foreign customers = bye bye Boeing!
BTW, the key to success in a global economy lies in education and technology. This is the key to the production of world class products.
Look what happens when foreign automobiles put those built in the USA to shame. OOPS!
There's work to be done but closing the door on globalization isn't the answer!
1) The US economy? Take off your blinders and look at the worldwide economy!
2) Better start warming up to it. Globalization is here to stay!
1) I misspoke. I did not mean to imply that that this Globalization created this current global mess. It did start in the US way before the current decline and had decayed the US standard of living.
2) That's EXACTLY what my B-school teachers said!
Sorry, don't like it, never did. I buy those autos made here too. I actually take it a step further and support my local municipality economy when I can. Just my preference, you can buy a Toyota if you like.
1) I misspoke. I did not mean to imply that that this Globalization created this current global mess. It did start in the US way before the current decline and had decayed the US standard of living.
2) That's EXACTLY what my B-school teachers said!
Sorry, don't like it, never did. I buy those autos made here too. I actually take it a step further and support my local municipality economy when I can. Just my preference, you can buy a Toyota if you like.
BD
Yes, it started here. Maybe we should ask Alan Greenspan to explain that one.
If I bought a Toyota, I'd be supporting TOYOTA NORTH AMERICA!
Don't feel bad about buying a Toyota. It will no doubt have been produced in the US by American workers who are better compensated than their peers at Ford or GM. BTW, Toyota employs tens of thousands of autoworkers here in the US!
How do you feel about Rolls Royce of the UK building another new factory in Virginia to build Trent engines for the B787?
Do you hate that too?
Look at the B787 sales and then tell me how many are from US airlines. You might just get a shock!
It aint many. Without "foreign" vendor financing, NWA would have ordered none!
Globalization will work but you cant have it both ways. Other nations are free to compete too!
I won't change your views. Old school guys have a hard time with globalization.....
Al
ALV,
Why do you think "old school guys have a problem with globalization?" Maybe because they realize that the best cars are made in countries that we were at war with 65 years ago? Maybe because they have been to places like India and China and know that the U.S. worker can never compete with the people in those countries because the standard of living (SOL) there is so low. Without protections that are actually enforced we are in BIG trouble. A meeting in the middle between the U.S. and other "global: economies only leads to a decline in the SOL for U.S. workers.
Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate and support globalization, but only if is serves to bring up the SOL for other workers, not a decrease for our own.
New K Now
__________________
Choice is an illusion, between those with power, and those without.
The loss of a vertical stabilizer alone does not make an aircraft crash. Jack Northrop's flying wing from the 1940's is proof that you don't need a vertical fin.
It was probably a chain of presently unknown events that led to the inflight break up of the aircraft.
Carl
Are you saying a modern airliner can fly without a vertical stab?
Why do you think "old school guys have a problem with globalization?" Maybe because they realize that the best cars are made in countries that we were at war with 65 years ago? Maybe because they have been to places like India and China and know that the U.S. worker can never compete with the people in those countries because the standard of living (SOL) there is so low. Without protections that are actually enforced we are in BIG trouble. A meeting in the middle between the U.S. and other "global: economies only leads to a decline in the SOL for U.S. workers.
Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate and support globalization, but only if is serves to bring up the SOL for other workers, not a decrease for our own.
New K Now
Come on now. The war is over!
World politics have changed. It's all about global north/global south nations now.
India's GNI is only 3 times the size of Wal-Mart. China's GNI is only 6 times the size of Wal-Mart. How's that for perspective?
There's great misconception when it comes to globalization. To many, it means nothing more than cheap labor overseas resulting in lost jobs at home.
The best manufactured, best selling cars in the world aren't made in some global south plant with horrible pay and conditions. They're made all over the world by Toyota. And, that includes huge numbers here in the US. Toyota is simply doing what GM and Ford can't. They're a much smarter, more efficient corp.
BTW, it goes both ways. Asia will soon be the biggest market for aviation in the world!
Like I said before, where are all those big orders from the B787 coming from. It isn't the USA!
Since 1990, foreign sales have accounted for over 70% of commercial transport sales.
And...............some folks in the US Aviation industry don't like globalization???
Yes, it started here. Maybe we should ask Alan Greenspan to explain that one.
If I bought a Toyota, I'd be supporting TOYOTA NORTH AMERICA!
Don't feel bad about buying a Toyota. It will no doubt have been produced in the US by American workers who are better compensated than their peers at Ford or GM. BTW, Toyota employs tens of thousands of autoworkers here in the US!
How do you feel about Rolls Royce of the UK building another new factory in Virginia to build Trent engines for the B787?
Do you hate that too?
Look at the B787 sales and then tell me how many are from US airlines. You might just get a shock!
It aint many. Without "foreign" vendor financing, NWA would have ordered none!
Globalization will work but you cant have it both ways. Other nations are free to compete too!
Al
Yes you are correct that other nations are free to compete. Your two examples above are what I would consider a hybrid-globalization model and I "hate it" a little less .
The current lawmakers in control of the US Government wants to control all aspects of our lives and increase taxes everywhere to "spread the wealth around a little. Maybe they should use their influence to get more jobs here. Like I said I don't mind the "hybrid-model" as much if they provide good jobs here. In fact, Japanese CEO's and execs make a fraction of their American counter parts. That's where some US companies could learn a lesson.
Does anyone here for a minute think that a CEO making $15M+/yr could not be replaced by someone who could do nearly the same job for say $1.5M?
Good food for thought Al. You can have your Toyota though. Actually, I only buy used cars so the manufacturer is less important.
World politics have changed. It's all about global north/global south nations now.
India's GNI is only 3 times the size of Wal-Mart. China's GNI is only 6 times the size of Wal-Mart. How's that for perspective?.........
Al
I've got perspective because I took that class just last week. If Walmart were a country it would be among the top 20 in the world (measured by GDP). So, let's not act like India and China are immaterial. Their workers affect the U.S. worker just as much as the workers Walmart employs, whom many of which work in labor camps in China, by the way.
I see you point-we're all connected, but I think you should see mine also. We should use that connection to bring some other countries workers working conditions and pay up, not allow ours to go down.
New K Now
__________________
Choice is an illusion, between those with power, and those without.
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