Southwest may make a bid for Frontier
08-03-2009, 11:03 AM
#261
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: Lawn Chair
Posts: 440
Originally Posted by MILPILOT17
Don't think the "staying in Denver" will or should happen. Pack your bags and enjoy the commute; OAK is not that far from Denver!
08-03-2009, 11:43 AM
#262
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by 1234
Sebastian,
I really don't want to get caught up in this thread, or let it creep away from the topic, but wanted to point out a couple of quick items for you. I took a very quick look at the 10k for FY2008 and found the following:
"Investing Activities. Cash used in investing activities for the year ended March 31, 2008 was $294,534,000. Capital expenditures were $350,844,000 for the year ended March 31, 2008, which included the purchase of three Airbus A318 aircraft, two Airbus A320 aircraft and ten Bombardier Q400 aircraft, new leather seat sets for 53 aircraft, the purchase of LiveTV equipment, rotable aircraft components, aircraft improvements, information technology enhancements, and ground equipment. Aircraft lease and purchase deposits made for aircraft deliveries during the period were $28,332,000. We also received $92,525,000 primarily from the sale of five of the 10 newly acquired Bombardier Q400 aircraft in sale-leaseback transactions.
" (Frontier 2008 10k report)
I really don't want to get caught up in this thread, or let it creep away from the topic, but wanted to point out a couple of quick items for you. I took a very quick look at the 10k for FY2008 and found the following:
"Investing Activities. Cash used in investing activities for the year ended March 31, 2008 was $294,534,000. Capital expenditures were $350,844,000 for the year ended March 31, 2008, which included the purchase of three Airbus A318 aircraft, two Airbus A320 aircraft and ten Bombardier Q400 aircraft, new leather seat sets for 53 aircraft, the purchase of LiveTV equipment, rotable aircraft components, aircraft improvements, information technology enhancements, and ground equipment. Aircraft lease and purchase deposits made for aircraft deliveries during the period were $28,332,000. We also received $92,525,000 primarily from the sale of five of the 10 newly acquired Bombardier Q400 aircraft in sale-leaseback transactions.
" (Frontier 2008 10k report)
I would not count RJET out, remember their initial DIP financing was composed of a group (Republic, Credit Suisse, and AQR capital which is a hedge fund). I'm sure that the counter proposal is being drafted as we speak and to think that Republic is alone in this venture is ludicrous.
My guess is things get very interesting over the next couple of weeks. SWA does not want a serious competitor in Denver to grow to other markets.
I'm sure pilots at both airlines do not want to give an inch but with respect to both groups a good integration would mean both parties are upset.
08-03-2009, 01:00 PM
#263
Gets Tue/Wed and Sat Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 551
Originally Posted by Flyboyrw
If SWA decided to keep the Q400s, and for some reason moved them to OAK, that would be awesome....it doesn't snow there
08-03-2009, 01:21 PM
#264
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by Navy8n
It is amazing to me how a little perspective can really have an impact on the position a person might take. And you talk about worthless speculation and BS Rhetoric??? Really??? Seriously??? You might want to go back to philosophy class Lifer cause real life is where the rest of us live!
Yes, sadly SWA is making this move due in part to eliminate competition. Man am I glad to work for a company that operates that way. You are in the aviation industry right? You say there will be no stapling. I'm curious how you know this. Why don't you also throw out a statement like there will be a Pay/Seat freeze. Sounds pretty good. Good luck w/ your new contract. I do sincerely hope you folks get what you want. I would not be so brash however as to state Industry Standard Pay Rates as fact prior to the ink drying. Just my opinion.
To PilotsWife I sympathize. I understand your point of view and I respect it. It has to be very challenging for your family right now and my thoughts are with you. Good Luck. If the F9 pilots think that Republic is the way to go then that is where their union should be making recommendations. I don't think poorly of that point of view at all. I caution you however to take a look at the track record.
There were many Morris folks that were ****ed off about their situation when they were brought to WN. Tough to find many who are upset at their position now. Do I think the same opportunities exist now that did back then?? No. Do I believe in my heart that the F9 folks would be welcomed and happy at SWA?? Yes. As stated before, all the F9 folks I have met are fantastic. Be a pleasure to work with them. Same goes for most of the pilot groups out there. I don't think I am better or worse than any one of them. Just trying to make it through...
Yes, sadly SWA is making this move due in part to eliminate competition. Man am I glad to work for a company that operates that way. You are in the aviation industry right? You say there will be no stapling. I'm curious how you know this. Why don't you also throw out a statement like there will be a Pay/Seat freeze. Sounds pretty good. Good luck w/ your new contract. I do sincerely hope you folks get what you want. I would not be so brash however as to state Industry Standard Pay Rates as fact prior to the ink drying. Just my opinion.
To PilotsWife I sympathize. I understand your point of view and I respect it. It has to be very challenging for your family right now and my thoughts are with you. Good Luck. If the F9 pilots think that Republic is the way to go then that is where their union should be making recommendations. I don't think poorly of that point of view at all. I caution you however to take a look at the track record.
There were many Morris folks that were ****ed off about their situation when they were brought to WN. Tough to find many who are upset at their position now. Do I think the same opportunities exist now that did back then?? No. Do I believe in my heart that the F9 folks would be welcomed and happy at SWA?? Yes. As stated before, all the F9 folks I have met are fantastic. Be a pleasure to work with them. Same goes for most of the pilot groups out there. I don't think I am better or worse than any one of them. Just trying to make it through...
You just continue to prove my point with your BS under the guise of " Reality. "
All knowing one with all of the wisdom.
You should try to Read for Comprehension--Not being Brash--Just telling you what the " Reality " really is.
I fly for Republic--you don't. I know the facts and direction we are going and taking--NO SPECULATION OR RHETORIC---JUST FACTS!!!
But then again--How can you reason with a M@#ON whose " Real Life " consists of not an ounce of Compassion.
Wisdom consists of the anticipation of consequences.
That's my " Reality ".
Your Quote:
" Yes, sadly SWA is making this move due in part to eliminate competition. "
I Guess Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Therefore, I guess you can forge on in the " Real Life " within which only you--with your handicapped thinking--lives.
08-03-2009, 01:59 PM
#265
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by OscartheGrouch
PW,
All of your points and desires are good ones. Please be very careful of being swayed by anyone who has a vested interest (i.e. Lifer) in this deal. I find it very difficult to believe that given his/her position at RAH that he has a finger on the pulse of what RAH's plans are. Perhaps an explanation of what has happened to Midwest should indicate how F9's folks will be treated. An opinion from a pilot is of little value in this situation until we get all of the facts of what is being offered. Everything else is just conjecture at this point. I might add that many of the points being made with regards to the Muse/Transtar and Morris situations are being misrepresented. I believe they are not indicative of what F9's situation is and how the employees will be treated by SWA. But remember I am just a pilot with an opinion. While I wish that an amicable deal can be made to bring F9's employees over to SWA in a fair and equitable manner I am not holding my breath. Frankly the mean-spirited attitude of some of my fellow employees who have posted on APC is discouraging to me. I fully expect to be shouted down soon. Best of luck to your family and the decision to be made.
Oscar
All of your points and desires are good ones. Please be very careful of being swayed by anyone who has a vested interest (i.e. Lifer) in this deal. I find it very difficult to believe that given his/her position at RAH that he has a finger on the pulse of what RAH's plans are. Perhaps an explanation of what has happened to Midwest should indicate how F9's folks will be treated. An opinion from a pilot is of little value in this situation until we get all of the facts of what is being offered. Everything else is just conjecture at this point. I might add that many of the points being made with regards to the Muse/Transtar and Morris situations are being misrepresented. I believe they are not indicative of what F9's situation is and how the employees will be treated by SWA. But remember I am just a pilot with an opinion. While I wish that an amicable deal can be made to bring F9's employees over to SWA in a fair and equitable manner I am not holding my breath. Frankly the mean-spirited attitude of some of my fellow employees who have posted on APC is discouraging to me. I fully expect to be shouted down soon. Best of luck to your family and the decision to be made.
Oscar
That is correct--none of which is based on fact!
I'm with the Pilot Group that BB corresponds to EVERY WEEK, VIA LETTERS, PODCASTS, ETC.--Everything spoken with respect to Direction we are taking, Pilots being introduced to our family, the planned growth, contract we are fighting for, and direction we are taking is based on facts.
Not alot BS Rhetoric, or, Non sensical rants from those who would prefer to speculate. professionalism is of Paramount importance during these times--not bashing other Pilot Groups.
I'd be careful of those who have a vested interest, and state, As SWA PILOTS HAVE, that " F9 will be Stapled and Offered the Opportunity to Interview with us as openings come up and we PHASE OUT THE F9' Airbuses for 737's. "
I don't hear " growth" there. I do hear " Anti Competitive " Rhetoric though.
You going to pay for their 737 Type Ratings or just dump them to the street because they are the competition.
The posts here seem to indicate the later is more likely than the former.
Or maybe your reading of the posts on this thread have been solely " selective ".
SWA doesn't even show a solid Growth plan in Place for F9, nor was their initial bid a firm one.
The Pilot's Wife's Husband, and all the F9 Pilots have to plan for a great deal of options---That's the point!
You, and SWA, are not the Gods and Saviors of Mankind---and you never will be.
So, Please, " Don't hold your breath. "
You may have some compassion, but, most of your co-workers show none.
The major block to compassion is the judgment in our minds. Judgment is the mind's primary tool of separation.
You can attack me if you want, but, it won't change the point---we all have to lookout for and make sure both F9 and Midwest people are kept employed and earning what they deserve.
You willing to go the extra mile to ensure their survival--I am!
BTW,
What happened to Midwest--was done by TIMOTHY HOEKSIMA, THEIR CEO--WHO SOLD THEM OUT FOR A GOLDEN PARACHUTE!
Neither MYSELF OR MY CO WORKERS SOLD THEM DOWN THE RIVER--but you can rest assured that OUR PILOT GROUP WILL MAKE SURE THAT THEY WILL NOT BE PAID LESS THAN THEY CURRENTLY ARE--THEY HAVE A CONTRACT THAT WILL BE HONORED--AND WE ARE NEGOTIATING INDUSTRY STANDARD PAY RATES FOR EVERY AIRFRAME ON, ON COMING ON ,THE PROPERTY.
We will make sure everyone coming on the property will partake in that new CBA--Midwest People, F9, us---EVERYONE--PERIOD.
If you honestly believe that we will not demand, in a new CBA, what is deserved--like we are slaves ( I mean you no disrespect when I say this but ) you may be more learning disabled than I could have ever imagined.
08-03-2009, 02:07 PM
#266
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: C47 PIC/747-400 SIC
Posts: 2,100
Originally Posted by Lifer
That is correct--none of which is based on fact!
I'm with the Pilot Group that BB corresponds to EVERY WEEK, VIA LETTERS, PODCASTS, ETC.--Everything spoken with respect to Direction we are taking, Pilots being introduced to our family, the planned growth, contract we are fighting for, and direction we are taking is based on facts.
Not alot BS Rhetoric, or, Non sensical rants from those who would prefer to speculate. professionalism is of Paramount importance during these times--not bashing other Pilot Groups.
I'd be careful of those who have a vested interest, and state, As SWA PILOTS HAVE, that " F9 will be Stapled and Offered the Opportunity to Interview with us as openings come up and we PHASE OUT THE F9' Airbuses for 737's. "
I don't hear " growth" there. I do hear " Anti Competitive " Rhetoric though.
You going to pay for their 737 Type Ratings or just dump them to the street because they are the competition.
The posts here seem to indicate the later is more likely than the former.
Or maybe your reading of the posts on this thread have been solely " selective ".
SWA doesn't even show a solid Growth plan in Place for F9, nor was their initial bid a firm one.
The Pilot's Wife's Husband, and all the F9 Pilots have to plan for a great deal of options---That's the point!
You, and SWA, are not the Gods and Saviors of Mankind---and you never will be.
So, Please, " Don't hold your breath. "
You may have some compassion, but, most of your co-workers show none.
The major block to compassion is the judgment in our minds. Judgment is the mind's primary tool of separation.
You can attack me if you want, but, it won't change the point---we all have to lookout for and make sure both F9 and Midwest people are kept employed and earning what they deserve.
You willing to go the extra mile to ensure their survival--I am!
BTW,
What happened to Midwest--was done by TIMOTHY HOEKSIMA, THEIR CEO--WHO SOLD THEM OUT FOR A GOLDEN PARACHUTE!
Neither MYSELF OR MY CO WORKERS SOLD THEM DOWN THE RIVER--but you can rest assured that OUR PILOT GROUP WILL MAKE SURE THAT THEY WILL NOT BE PAID LESS THAN THEY CURRENTLY ARE--THEY HAVE A CONTRACT THAT WILL BE HONORED--AND WE ARE NEGOTIATING INDUSTRY STANDARD PAY RATES FOR EVERY AIRFRAME ON, ON COMING ON ,THE PROPERTY.
We will make sure everyone coming on the property will partake in that new CBA--Midwest People, F9, us---EVERYONE--PERIOD.
If you honestly believe that we will not demand, in a new CBA, what is deserved--like we are slaves ( I mean you no disrespect when I say this but ) you may be more learning disabled than I could have ever imagined.
I'm with the Pilot Group that BB corresponds to EVERY WEEK, VIA LETTERS, PODCASTS, ETC.--Everything spoken with respect to Direction we are taking, Pilots being introduced to our family, the planned growth, contract we are fighting for, and direction we are taking is based on facts.
Not alot BS Rhetoric, or, Non sensical rants from those who would prefer to speculate. professionalism is of Paramount importance during these times--not bashing other Pilot Groups.
I'd be careful of those who have a vested interest, and state, As SWA PILOTS HAVE, that " F9 will be Stapled and Offered the Opportunity to Interview with us as openings come up and we PHASE OUT THE F9' Airbuses for 737's. "
I don't hear " growth" there. I do hear " Anti Competitive " Rhetoric though.
You going to pay for their 737 Type Ratings or just dump them to the street because they are the competition.
The posts here seem to indicate the later is more likely than the former.
Or maybe your reading of the posts on this thread have been solely " selective ".
SWA doesn't even show a solid Growth plan in Place for F9, nor was their initial bid a firm one.
The Pilot's Wife's Husband, and all the F9 Pilots have to plan for a great deal of options---That's the point!
You, and SWA, are not the Gods and Saviors of Mankind---and you never will be.
So, Please, " Don't hold your breath. "
You may have some compassion, but, most of your co-workers show none.
The major block to compassion is the judgment in our minds. Judgment is the mind's primary tool of separation.
You can attack me if you want, but, it won't change the point---we all have to lookout for and make sure both F9 and Midwest people are kept employed and earning what they deserve.
You willing to go the extra mile to ensure their survival--I am!
BTW,
What happened to Midwest--was done by TIMOTHY HOEKSIMA, THEIR CEO--WHO SOLD THEM OUT FOR A GOLDEN PARACHUTE!
Neither MYSELF OR MY CO WORKERS SOLD THEM DOWN THE RIVER--but you can rest assured that OUR PILOT GROUP WILL MAKE SURE THAT THEY WILL NOT BE PAID LESS THAN THEY CURRENTLY ARE--THEY HAVE A CONTRACT THAT WILL BE HONORED--AND WE ARE NEGOTIATING INDUSTRY STANDARD PAY RATES FOR EVERY AIRFRAME ON, ON COMING ON ,THE PROPERTY.
We will make sure everyone coming on the property will partake in that new CBA--Midwest People, F9, us---EVERYONE--PERIOD.
If you honestly believe that we will not demand, in a new CBA, what is deserved--like we are slaves ( I mean you no disrespect when I say this but ) you may be more learning disabled than I could have ever imagined.
08-03-2009, 02:41 PM
#267
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by Lifer
You just continue to prove my point with your BS under the guise of " Reality. "
All knowing one with all of the wisdom.
You should try to Read for Comprehension--Not being Brash--Just telling you what the " Reality " really is.
I fly for Republic--you don't. I know the facts and direction we are going and taking--NO SPECULATION OR RHETORIC---JUST FACTS!!!
But then again--How can you reason with a M@#ON whose " Real Life " consists of not an ounce of Compassion.
Wisdom consists of the anticipation of consequences.
That's my " Reality ".
Your Quote:
" Yes, sadly SWA is making this move due in part to eliminate competition. "
I Guess Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Therefore, I guess you can forge on in the " Real Life " within which only you--with your handicapped thinking--lives.
All knowing one with all of the wisdom.
You should try to Read for Comprehension--Not being Brash--Just telling you what the " Reality " really is.
I fly for Republic--you don't. I know the facts and direction we are going and taking--NO SPECULATION OR RHETORIC---JUST FACTS!!!
But then again--How can you reason with a M@#ON whose " Real Life " consists of not an ounce of Compassion.
Wisdom consists of the anticipation of consequences.
That's my " Reality ".
Your Quote:
" Yes, sadly SWA is making this move due in part to eliminate competition. "
I Guess Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Therefore, I guess you can forge on in the " Real Life " within which only you--with your handicapped thinking--lives.
So if I listen to your reasoning... You discount my statements as arrogant and BS when I plainly admit that I am basing much of those statements as opinions (my own I might add) and conjecture. And we should listen to what you are saying because you speak of "weekly updates" from BB as a signed sealed and delivered CBA. You can demand all you like but that doesn't necessarily mean that is what you are going to get. I know you are aware of this. I don't know why you continue to speak as if you are the only one making the decisions for RAH. You can no more speak for a fact of what will happen to F9 pilots if they come to RAH than you can if they come to SWA or anywhere else... That is b/c you are one pilot in an entire group. Sure.. State your opinion. But don't argue that you know everything that will happen ("I fly for Republic--you don't. I know the facts and direction we are going and taking--NO SPECULATION OR RHETORIC---JUST FACTS!!!) and then be so hypocritical as to say that I am arrogant. I have plenty of compassion... Just not for the stupid
" Yes, sadly SWA is making this move due in part to eliminate competition. "
"I Guess Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped."
You quoted me... insulted my statement when in fact it was your own statement to begin with ("Unlike SWA, We are not bidding for F9 to GET RID OF THE COMPETITION!") and you tell me I have a problem with comprehension??? I was agreeing with you.
"You, and SWA, are not the Gods and Saviors of Mankind---and you never will be." Thanks for clarifying this...
I must say that I have never once heard a bad thing about the bros and sisters over at RAH... Once again I reiterate that I wish you folks the best. I hold absolutely no animosity toward that group or any other Pilot group. I wonder if you can say the same?
As stated before, I look forward to seeing the F9 guys on campus w/ a pay protection. That is the right answer (in my in-compassionate opinion). You have opportunity for growth still and you also have job security.
08-03-2009, 03:18 PM
#268
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
Wow LIFER are you for real? Talk about the all knowing pilot who is about to blow a gasket. I simply said that the guys/gals at F9 should not believe anyone who has a vested interest in this deal. That includes me I might add. You can take what I say as one opinion and that of a pilot I might add. Yours however is of much more value I can tell. BTW you can explain it all you want and talk loudly but when your pilots started flying Midwest routes and they furloughed their pilots it just seems odd to this feeble mind of mine which of course is no match for your superior intellect.
Oscarthegrouch
BTW The Morris pilots without 737 ratings where given them when they upgraded.
Oscarthegrouch
BTW The Morris pilots without 737 ratings where given them when they upgraded.
08-03-2009, 06:00 PM
#270
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: A320
Posts: 103
Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy?
Its obvious....The senior guys at F9 are leaning towards the RAH deal because with our without a "fence," they know every Republic guy that ends up bidding over will be below them while all of us junior guys just count down the days to the RJ.
As stated by another F9er Flex, majority of us junior FO's (less than 4 yrs seniority) would BENEFIT from anything involving SWA. I would rather be low man on the totem pole at SWA and get furloughed knowing that I will eventually be called back to a great airline.....its not always about the now, we need to look into our future.
Or just start counting down until our "5 year fence" is over and the Republic pilots bid over?
I like to think that at F9 we have many similar traits to SWA. Majority of the pilot group loves interacting with the pax and flight crew members. We all help clean, throw a bag, pretty much do whatever to be a team player because we love where we work. These are just a few examples, but I think our culture would fit very well with SWA.
I, like everyone is looking out for numero uno, so just my personal opinion
Its obvious....The senior guys at F9 are leaning towards the RAH deal because with our without a "fence," they know every Republic guy that ends up bidding over will be below them while all of us junior guys just count down the days to the RJ.
As stated by another F9er Flex, majority of us junior FO's (less than 4 yrs seniority) would BENEFIT from anything involving SWA. I would rather be low man on the totem pole at SWA and get furloughed knowing that I will eventually be called back to a great airline.....its not always about the now, we need to look into our future.
Or just start counting down until our "5 year fence" is over and the Republic pilots bid over?
I like to think that at F9 we have many similar traits to SWA. Majority of the pilot group loves interacting with the pax and flight crew members. We all help clean, throw a bag, pretty much do whatever to be a team player because we love where we work. These are just a few examples, but I think our culture would fit very well with SWA.
I, like everyone is looking out for numero uno, so just my personal opinion
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