This is the big picture truth of the matter. We're rapidly becoming a kleptocracy, and everyone is busily pointing their fingers at the other side's liars and thieves while cheering their own liars and thieves on, like it's some kind of a ball game. I guess that's what happens when you have a populace so inundated by advertising from birth that "brand loyalty" means much more than "rational thought".
Until the nation returns to business of creation and innovation rather than "resource re-allocation", we're all going to be a lot closer to the "bike riding to the co-op to barter for food" model than the "six figures to start" model.
PS. It's also worth considering that even if we somehow negotiated the same dollar-amount salaries that were enjoyed in previous generations, the real value of those dollars is rapidly eroding. There's a very real chance that in the next 5 years, $300k/year will be a subsistence salary, thanks to the totally unsustainable and frankly insane debt leveraging/hyperinflationary policies of our "Can't say no/Me Generation" overlords. I'd say stay in the military, but there's a very good chance you'll be spending a lot of time subduing unruly locals who labor under the misapprehension that their resources are theirs to sell rather than ours to take.
While I may agree with some your points I don't think that capitalism will solve the problem. It is capitalism that got this profession on its knees. Labor without the right to strike has no leverage at all against the mangment with their "resource re-allocation". Pilots hard earned money is getting re-allocated into the pockets of the very few people at the top. European countries with stronger labor make a much more than pilots in the USA for that very reason. It is no secret that during the Reagan years pilots and other labor lost most of its strength and their money got allocated to the top 2%. While I am not a supporter of socialism, I believe that every hard working person deserves a decent living. There should be some boundries on both side the fence. I don't think the a union plumber deserves 120 K a year just because he part of a union. I work union labor in NYC and believe I don't support their tactics and outrageous salaries. Remember CEO from 30 years ago made roughly twice as much as senior Captain. Today some Glen Tilton makes as much in a week as senior Captain makes in a year. If that's not "resource re-allocation" then I don't know what is.
Make a note: After each of our large wars there where an abundance of pilots, the only time I can think of when the airlines had to train almost from scratch was the late sixties. The flying job paid extremely well through all of these different periods of abundance of pilots.
You express a very management oriented point of view.
That was a different era, a different society we were living in. People were encouraged to succeed, not beg for bailouts. I think the secular decline in the piloting profession that began post 9/11 is obvious enough. We lost decades of progress wrt contractual terms and conditions, likely gone forever.
In 1977 a UAL Capt/FO on the 737 made $120K/$77K per year respectivly. In today's dollars, that would have to be $400K/$250K just to keep up with inflation. These days, both pilots together don't even make what the F/O should be making.
Does that sound like a management point of view?
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If they can't see it coming, they sure won't know what to do when it gets here.
If you agree with this then we are talking the same language.
I didn't say you weren't labor - I just said that it didn't mean you weren't professionals.
USMCFLYR
The problem with the word professional is that managements use it as a way to convince pilots ,labor, that they should behave and think more like management. I have heard , its not professional to strike, its not professional to verbalize the potential for a job action, its not professional to do an assortment of things that occurr in the process of being a member of a labor organization. The number of times I have heard the accountant, corporate lawyer, doctor that lives next door or that I play golf with thinks what we are saying we are going to do if we don't get a contract is unprofessional. The fact that we are labor has nothing to do with the way in which we perform our jobs.
That was a different era, a different society we were living in. People were encouraged to succeed, not beg for bailouts. I think the secular decline in the piloting profession that began post 9/11 is obvious enough. We lost decades of progress wrt contractual terms and conditions, likely gone forever.
In 1977 a UAL Capt/FO on the 737 made $120K/$77K per year respectivly. In today's dollars, that would have to be $400K/$250K just to keep up with inflation. These days, both pilots together don't even make what the F/O should be making.
Does that sound like a management point of view?
Accepting the point that we will never get it back is the management point of view.
The problem with the word professional is that managements use it as a way to convince pilots ,labor, that they should behave and think more like management. I have heard , its not professional to strike, its not professional to verbalize the potential for a job action, its not professional to do an assortment of things that occurr in the process of being a member of a labor organization. The number of times I have heard the accountant, corporate lawyer, doctor that lives next door or that I play golf with thinks what we are saying we are going to do if we don't get a contract is unprofessional. The fact that we are labor has nothing to do with the way in which we perform our jobs.
Then that is their problem and an abuse of the word and the way that many chose to conduct themselves. If you end up buying into that you have let them gain a little edge. Like was said in the other thread numerous times - professionalism is more than some definition that comes out of Wikipedia like some have posted - it comes from within too and how you view and carry yourself. As for the bolded part above - EXACTLY - you can be labor and still be professional!
This is the big picture truth of the matter. We're rapidly becoming a kleptocracy, and everyone is busily pointing their fingers at the other side's liars and thieves while cheering their own liars and thieves on, like it's some kind of a ball game. I guess that's what happens when you have a populace so inundated by advertising from birth that "brand loyalty" means much more than "rational thought".
Until the nation returns to business of creation and innovation rather than "resource re-allocation", we're all going to be a lot closer to the "bike riding to the co-op to barter for food" model than the "six figures to start" model.
PS. It's also worth considering that even if we somehow negotiated the same dollar-amount salaries that were enjoyed in previous generations, the real value of those dollars is rapidly eroding. There's a very real chance that in the next 5 years, $300k/year will be a subsistence salary, thanks to the totally unsustainable and frankly insane debt leveraging/hyperinflationary policies of our "Can't say no/Me Generation" overlords. I'd say stay in the military, but there's a very good chance you'll be spending a lot of time subduing unruly locals who labor under the misapprehension that their resources are theirs to sell rather than ours to take.
Kleptocracy, the real name for what we have had for a very long time. The theft is much larger in terms of wealth and rights than half of us understand.
Even the half that understands this is unwilling to change the status quo. Things are not going to turn around until forced by disaster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal
While I may agree with some your points I don't think that capitalism will solve the problem. It is capitalism that got this profession on its knees. Labor without the right to strike has no leverage at all against the mangment with their "resource re-allocation". Pilots hard earned money is getting re-allocated into the pockets of the very few people at the top. European countries with stronger labor make a much more than pilots in the USA for that very reason. It is no secret that during the Reagan years pilots and other labor lost most of its strength and their money got allocated to the top 2%. While I am not a supporter of socialism, I believe that every hard working person deserves a decent living. There should be some boundries on both side the fence. I don't think the a union plumber deserves 120 K a year just because he part of a union. I work union labor in NYC and believe I don't support their tactics and outrageous salaries. Remember CEO from 30 years ago made roughly twice as much as senior Captain. Today some Glen Tilton makes as much in a week as senior Captain makes in a year. If that's not "resource re-allocation" then I don't know what is.
Without the engine of Capitalism there will not be jobs to provide a decent living no matter how hard one wishes to work. The truth is that half of us are supporting the other half and the country's management has been doing their best to destroy the economy through poor regulation for about half a century.
Unions are a bargaining tool, governments are a tool of redistribution-neither creates jobs or wealth.
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Just another slave on the Marxist plantation. With the "joint Reptilian-Bavarian Illuminati" crew.
Stay in and retire with your retirement pension. Commercial flying with the major airlines SUCKS. The airline unions have been beat to a pulp by the government and managements and are now only shadows of their former selves.
The senior pilots at the airlines don't give a hoot about junior guys or the "profession" and will sell you out in NY minute if it will get them 5 cents more an hour or allow them to keep their cushy schedule for another few years.
When you retire, get a real job and fly for fun. Airline flying ISN'T what you think it is nor what it used to be.
Stay in and retire with your retirement pension. Commercial flying with the major airlines SUCKS. The airline unions have been beat to a pulp by the government and managements and are now only shadows of their former selves.
The senior pilots at the airlines don't give a hoot about junior guys or the "profession" and will sell you out in NY minute if it will get them 5 cents more an hour or allow them to keep their cushy schedule for another few years.
When you retire, get a real job and fly for fun. Airline flying ISN'T what you think it is nor what it used to be.
It's a shame, but a lot of guys I work with in the ANG have the same feeling. However, I still love the airline pilot profession. SWA is proof that it's still possible to enjoy going on a trip every week. I'm not a koolaid drinker. I'm well aware of how our union and management have been 'bargaining' now for 3+ years and that when we close out this TA, they'll probably start preliminary negotiating for the next one which is due in 2011. It's not the same airline of just 10 years ago. Challenging times are here to stay for this industry, but I still 'overall' really enjoy the job.
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