Sink r8

I disagree. I've watched the animation on youtbe that shows aircraft controls and a graphic of the aircraft attitude, along with the transcript from the CVR, and this thing doesn't have thing one to do with the F/O's commuting, or the distance of that commute, or even fatigue.

It appears it has to do with general incompetence, horrible flying skills, fraudulent and criminal behavior in disguising the aforementioned skills and incompetence on the part of the captain, and a poor technical job by the F/O, combined with poor judgment in not calling in sick when she wasn't fit for duty.

The crew did absolutely everything imagineable to create the upset, and the captain did everything wrong, to positively lose control of this thing, and undo the good work of generations of engineers, and decades of improvement in aviation safety. The F/O only sealed the deal by bringing the flaps up.

This commuting and fatigue stuff is tangential nonsense. At least that is the picture I get when putting together the few facts in my possession.

Bigflya

Mgmt is obviously looking for East/West coast turns on the increase in flight-time. Less nights in the hotel and less crews ultimately. If rules like this go into effect in 2010, every airline will become overstaffed and we know what will follow. Also, these rules can be used by mgmt in future scope negotiations. Either way we lose.

Captain Bligh

I agree. The point is the cause of the accident has nothing to do with the political avalanche it has started with regard to flight time and duty limitation rule changes.

Bigflya

Dude,

You and I come to the same conclusion. All the "old" guys we fly with talk about long initial courses with weeks of dedicated systems classes, sims etc. Now systems are done via CD-Rom and are expected to be completed when prior to training. There is a brief Q&A session but you do not know what to ask when you never really learned it to begin with. I agree that you don't need to build the system but a little knowledge goes a long way. "New" pilots are now never taught things like basic icing/stall techniques/procedures because it adds costs and time to training. Pilots with min time are flying around on paupers wages and are more willing to do it. Forget about crew rest and look into improving training programs and hiring requirments. Some pax carriers have a min time of 250 hrs and then they are flying the line. Crazy to me.

Cruise

Wow! Here's to unity on your part.....great attitude, please continue to make us all proud. Imagine if you mainline types hadn't sold scope down the river years ago, what the industry might be like today. Significantly less regional feed and a prospective career to look forward too??? Good chance. Keep the bar high guys and continue to pull up the ladder to prove how 'super' many of you mainline pilots really are. Obviously, no mainline pilot would ever have a bad night and bend some metal because they were distracted, tired, fatigued, sick, incompetent, etc.... I know, I know....nothing like that could EVER happen to you.

We're all human and as such, prone to making mistakes. Let's hope the next mistake you make doesn't kill you or someone else. Or do you seriously think it couldn't happen to you???

*realizing some of the poor 'upper echelon' attitudes here are not indicative of the entire group opinion*

beeker

Bigflya brought up some points about the training. At the regional I was at they had a transition due to a change in fleet makeup. As soon as the FAA stop coming to every class and every checkride, they changed the ground school from 3 weeks to 2 weeks. The class time during those 2 weeks was 8am to 5 or 6pm, which left very little study time afterwards. The night before the written exam I felt like I knew nothing, because I didn't, until I saw the copy of the exam. I don't know how we got it but we did. Two days later came the oral exam, which everyone said they weren't ready, but were told "don't worry." The day of the oral exam was interesting. There were suppose to three that took up the day but he did six. On top of that he wanted to finish by the time the football game started, I think the cowboys-giants.

I definitely learned things but it should not have been that way.

Captain Bligh

If I might add... The regional feed system allows many of these immaturities to crystallize, in fact solidify unchecked until those individuals minds are no longer malleable let alone open to suggestion. The next step, they eventually get hired at a major and often become the voice box of the entitlement generation deepening the chasm.

I want to continue to distance myself and my profession from the choices that crew made together and as individuals even before the specific actions that lead to that accident.

Packer Backer

Meanwhile we have to learn how to squeeze a fire extinguisher and put on PBE's EVERY year! Or climb into an already inflated raft. 95% of our recurrent training is just jumping through the FAA hoops instead of any real learning event.

captjns

Yup... in a B737-800... about 1:00 scheduled block... short turns too. Able to tanker fuel for each R/T which helps... But glad to set the Park Brake after the last leg. On the plus side... at the same hotel every night thus no daily bag drag death march through the terminal.

sailingfun

I would have to disagree. They both may have been poor pilots however the mistakes they made were typical of someone who was very fatigued. The failure of either pilot to catch the decrease in airspeed when the power was not advanced is critical and is exactly the type of error you see in pilots fatigued. There have been several other incidents of airspeed falling well below planned and not being caught. All were crews coming off very bad sleep cycles.