What's your opinion on airline mgmt taking multi-million dollar bonuses after pilots take 23-50% paycuts (along with all other employees taking cuts)? Moral and ethical? It's (the bonuses) 'legal' just as these divorces were.....fishy or not.
The 'get mine first' crowd is mgmt. You may not like what these pilots did, but what do you suggest? Should they hang around until the airline goes totally under and there's no $$ for anyone? Do you really think the retirement $$ they earned and took via divorce really affects anything with the airline ops?
They used a legal loophole to extract $$ from the airline they'd never get otherwise (unless you really think this airline will be around to pay their retirements). You might disagree with them on moral and ethical grounds -- but you should be all over mgmt too, or you're a hypocrite.
Personally I don't like it either, but I'll vilify mgmt before I crucify an employee taking desperate measures to secure retirement funds that will be stolen by mgmt in the end anyway.
Do you think these pilots would have done this had they not been shoved into a corner? Who shoved them? Who's the real villiain?
OK, 2 rights don't make a wrong..........but then, this ain't Camelot.
So, since airline management screws it's employees, now we allow employees to screw employees? I don't think CAL is planning on going "under" as you say, anytime soon, as a matter of fact, we aren't doing that bad considering the environment. Is their money in jeopardy? I don't think so. You say they can't get the money? Well, if they'd retire, they CAN get the money....it's just they want to sit around and get all they can for ME ME ME! As for saying they were "shoved in a corner"....you gotta be kidding me. What about the other 4700 pilots? Did you see them pulling the same shenanigans? Don't you think they'd all be doing the same thing to "protect and get the money they earned"? No, I don't agree with our BOD giving management the bank, but I don't appreciate when pilots are doing their damndest to screw other pilots either. I guess picking up open time with pilots on furlough is "okay" with you too since it's "legal", right? Afterall, it's their "right".
What's your opinion on airline mgmt taking multi-million dollar bonuses after pilots take 23-50% paycuts (along with all other employees taking cuts)? Moral and ethical? It's (the bonuses) 'legal' just as these divorces were.....fishy or not.
The 'get mine first' crowd is mgmt. You may not like what these pilots did, but what do you suggest? Should they hang around until the airline goes totally under and there's no $$ for anyone? Do you really think the retirement $$ they earned and took via divorce really affects anything with the airline ops?
They used a legal loophole to extract $$ from the airline they'd never get otherwise (unless you really think this airline will be around to pay their retirements). You might disagree with them on moral and ethical grounds -- but you should be all over mgmt too, or you're a hypocrite.
Personally I don't like it either, but I'll vilify mgmt before I crucify an employee taking desperate measures to secure retirement funds that will be stolen by mgmt in the end anyway.
Do you think these pilots would have done this had they not been shoved into a corner? Who shoved them? Who's the real villiain?
OK, 2 rights don't make a wrong..........but then, this ain't Camelot.
I don't think anyone would excuse the management bonuses and pay. The problem is that the money in a retirement fund belongs to the PILOTS and not the company. As long as the fund stays fully funded, then what these guys did didn't hurt their fellow pilots. If the retirement fund goes into liquidity shortfall and/or is terminated then what these guys did DOES HURT THEIR FELLOW PILOTS. When you take more than your share from the pension fund, you are taking from PILOTS, not from management. That is why people are upset with what they did.
When you take more than your share from the pension fund, you are taking from PILOTS, not from management. That is why people are upset with what they did.
If their actions only hurt other pilots, why would CAL expend so much effort going after them?
I don't think anyone would excuse the management bonuses and pay. The problem is that the money in a retirement fund belongs to the PILOTS and not the company. As long as the fund stays fully funded, then what these guys did didn't hurt their fellow pilots. If the retirement fund goes into liquidity shortfall and/or is terminated then what these guys did DOES HURT THEIR FELLOW PILOTS. When you take more than your share from the pension fund, you are taking from PILOTS, not from management. That is why people are upset with what they did.
Bingo. And who let the plan drop below full funding? Was it the pilots?
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 1,827
nah. fellow employees are not screwed. The employees have accrued their benefits, and would be entitled to the lump sume equivalent of said benefits. It's theirs for the taking whether they terminate their employment, retire, or have to make a distribution to an alternate payee under the provisions of QDRO in the event divorce.
These chaps chose a legal way to protect their accrued financial interests as provided under the provisions of Internal Revenue Code.
Who cares if they chose to get back together with their spouses after a dirty divorce.
I say chalk one up for the employees, and for once mgt. got what they deserve... self protection by the employees
..... fellow employees are not screwed. The employees have accrued their benefits, and would be entitled to the lump sume equivalent of said benefits. It's theirs for the taking whether they terminate their employment, retire, or have to make a distribution to an alternate payee under the provisions of QDRO in the event divorce.
These chaps chose a legal way to protect their accrued financial interests as provided under the provisions of Internal Revenue Code.
Who cares if they chose to get back together with their spouses after a dirty divorce.
I say chalk one up for the employees, and for once mgt. got what they deserve... self protection by the employees
Where are you getting this information? Their fellow pilots are getting screwed. That money is for retirement purposes, NOT sham divorces. Seriously, do you REALLY think 8 "friends" would ALL be getting divorces AT THE SAME TIME, getting their lump sums, giving it to their wives, and then ALL of the getting back together at the same time isn't just a "little" bit fishy? It's a sham and they all deserve to go to jail, plain and simple. Personally I hope their greed and stupidity puts them in the poor house.
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 1,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot
Where are you getting this information? Their fellow pilots are getting screwed. That money is for retirement purposes, NOT sham divorces.
Check with ERISA, TEFRA, DEFRA, and QDRO. Also FASB 35 and FASB 36. While you may not like the methods, or lengths your fellow colleage went to ensure their financial security... it's legal.
In the case of separation, leading to divorce, under QDRO, the alternate payee, ie spouse, is entitled to a minimum of 50 percent of the participant's present value of his/her accrued benefit.
The methods of determining such present value of accrued benefits differs for both Defined Benefit and Defined Contribution Plans.
The more I read between the lines in this case, the angrier I get. Several of you have asked deep probing questions like, "Do two wrongs make a right?" I stumble and struggle with that, as my own "moral compass" seems to have been demagnetized over the years of sharing employment with the likes of these people that "manage" airlines. I wonder on a daily basis if I can work another day in this miserable industry let alone another 15 years without becoming skewed.
Did the funding for the legal defense of the airline's management come from the airline's general fund for mismanagement defense, or did they withdrawal special funds from the retirement plan to pay for the limos, hotels, attorneys and catered lunches while they wrongfully terminated and tried to sue these pilots? Grounds for lawsuit? It seems that the pilots just tried to steal their own retirement before management got it. Judge Gary Miller has ruled that the airline's management was WAY OUT OF LINE. Since we're talking on a higher moral plain, even given my soul searching, to that I say AMEN. ...and...
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome back. Use the precedent set in this case to sue the airline nine ways to Sunday. Sue for back pay. Sue for back benefits. Sue for pain and suffering. Sue for defamation of character. If anyone looks at you sideways sue them too. Given the language used by Judge Miller, your lawsuits should be a slam dunk. When that is all said and done, consider commuting in early for any trips you choose not to call in sick for over the first year of your reinstatement and spend the time hobnobbing around in the CPO. Flirt with the office staff, rub elbows with the guys that fly desks for a living and generally tell your story often and loud with a large dose of embellishment and poetic license about how they tried to run you out on a rail without having their ducks in a row.
Maybe I can live with the new administration. Seems pretty labor friendly to me.
Last edited by Captain Bligh : 10-20-2009 at 06:23 PM.
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