I feel sorry for these guys. As others have said, I'm sure they a great couple of guys.
Nevertheless...I'm distressed by the people here defending them, and saying things like 'Stop acting like pilots at your airline aren't guilty of the same thing'. These two, despite having performed well in the past, need to not be flying anymore. The fact that some people think this is no big deal makes me hope I don't have to fly on an airline again anytime soon, and trust me, that's what the general public hopes as well.
The knowingly, willingly and disregarding safety part is whats going to get this crew in the end imho.
What specific offense allegedly attributed to the crew of NW 188 demonstrates an 'intentional disregard for safety' or 'operating carelessly and recklessly' (I'm not arguing guilt, just asking to specify the offense):
losing SA
using a laptop (or other media such as reading material, audio or video source) in flight ("There are no federal rules that specifically ban pilots' use of laptops or other personal electronic devices as long as the plane is flying above 10,000 feet." - Diane Spitaliere, FAA spokeswoman.)
missing radio calls from ATC (called "failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances" by the FAA)
missing company messages
missing indications on the aircraft display
losing track of time
something else (if so, please name it)
Is the FAA and/or NTSB playing an impartial role here; are they influenced by an outside interest, such as the media? What role are WE, fellow professional pilots, playing in this incident?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LivingInMEM
Be careful how you define intentional, because once the precedent is set it can't be taken back.
Exactly. Think long and hard about the potential implications of this investigation.
Personally, and call me crazy, I don't think either one of them should have lost their job or their ticket. With thousands of hours under your belt a mistake will happen sooner or later. That's why they are mistakes. A suspension, fine, but don't ruin their lives over it. They are both highly skilled and experienced aviators. They slipped up. We all know it and they haven't withheld any information that has yet to be provided. I think this is a very harsh punishment. Again just my opinion. I have a feeling that if either one of them managed to get back in the cockpit again they'd NEVER find themselves in this same type of situation.
To me it comes down to A)Are they skilled and qualified pilots (yes) and B) Are they capable of learning from their mistake (yes). I don't feel the skies are any safer with them gone.
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Proudly Chemtrailing the United States since 2007.
....but they likely didnt "intentionally" landed on the taxiway. AGAIN i dont know the details and just assume that they accidentally landed on the taxi way.
The knowingly, willingly and disregarding safety part is whats going to get this crew in the end imho.
It may be a stretch, but I would bet that the NWA two did not intentionally overfly MSP either.
Here's something else to think about. How honest do some of you feel like being next time? Apparently honesty isn't the best policy.
The CVR only had the approach to landing recorded. They could have lied, said they were kept up all night in the hotel by kids running down the hallway, rough bed, etc., and said they fell asleep and probably have been off better.
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Proudly Chemtrailing the United States since 2007.
Where'd the link to the media and Cheney's "order of revocation" go? For the record, it was posted on this board (it had Cheney's ATP certificate # on it, so I won't repost it).
The FAA timeline shows that NW188 was out of contact with ATC for 51 minutes, from 19:24:16 CDT to approximately 20:14 CDT.
It also makes clear that NW188 last contacted Denver center 91 minutes prior to 20:14 CDT, or 18:43 CDT, which means they flew in Denver Center's airspace for 41 minutes without Denver trying to contact them either.
They missed at least 2 radio calls from Denver Center.
NW Dispatch made 8 attempts to contact them, beginning @ 19:32 CDT (42 minutes before NW188 contacted Minneapolis Center).
The FAA action is based on violations of FARs:
91.13(a)
91.123(a)
91.123(b)
91.135(b)
91.13 is the 'careless and reckless' one, while the other 3 are failure to follow ATC clearance.
Anyone have a problem that this letter was mailed by the FAA to Captain Cheney "via Federal Express, Regular Mail and Certified Mail" on Oct. 27th from ATL, and I can read it @ 0055 EDT on the 28th? There's no way Captain Cheney has been served this letter by any of the above mentioned means yet.
Yet again, is the FAA acting as impartial judge, and what role is the media playing here? Does every FAA emergency order of revocation get sent to media outlets? Is this how you would want your certificate action handled by the FAA?
Where'd the link to the media and Cheney's "order of revocation" go? For the record, it was posted on this board (it had Cheney's ATP certificate # on it, so I won't repost it).
The FAA timeline shows that NW188 was out of contact with ATC for 51 minutes, from 19:24:16 CDT to approximately 20:14 CDT.
It also makes clear that NW188 last contacted Denver center 91 minutes prior to 20:14 CDT, or 18:43 CDT, which means they flew in Denver Center's airspace for 41 minutes without Denver trying to contact them either.
They missed at least 2 radio calls from Denver Center.
NW Dispatch made 8 attempts to contact them, beginning @ 19:32 CDT (42 minutes before NW188 contacted Minneapolis Center).
The FAA action is based on violations of FARs:
91.13(a)
91.123(a)
91.123(b)
91.135(b)
91.13 is the 'careless and reckless' one, while the other 3 are failure to follow ATC clearance.
Anyone have a problem that this letter was mailed by the FAA to Captain Cheney "via Federal Express, Regular Mail and Certified Mail" on Oct. 27th from ATL, and I can read it @ 0055 EDT on the 28th? There's no way Captain Cheney has been served this letter by any of the above mentioned means yet.
Yet again, is the FAA acting as impartial judge, and what role is the media playing here? Does every FAA emergency order of revocation get sent to media outlets? Is this how you would want your certificate action handled by the FAA?
Hell no!! All very good points. It's the quickest trial I have ever seen. Judge and jury and judgment in less than a week from the incident.
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Choice is an illusion, between those with power, and those without.
First off, we can stop giving the FAA the rope to hang them.
I don't condone mistakes (even ones I have and will make), but the folks on this board who want to crucify this crew, even prior to the facts coming out, only increase the likelihood of honest professionals who make a faux paz get sent up the river.
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Fly or monitor, I get paid the same.
Contact someone @ the FAA if you believe that the certificate action process is being subverted. The key is, was the process subverted here?
As far as I can tell, by reviewing FAA Order 1270.1 FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT PROGRAM, no (even though a emergency revocation of an ATP license was published prior to the certified revocation being received by the pilot). The media is allowed to make a FOIA request. The FAA has 20 days to process the request (but could process it immediately if they so choose). If the request is proper (agreeing to pay fees, properly filling out the form, etc, known as a "perfected request"), then the FAA will release "all records"
FAA Order 1270.1 FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT PROGRAM:
Quote:
Records include any existing writing, drawing, map, recording, tape, film, photograph, or other documentary material used to preserve information by the agency. Records also include existing documentary material stored in an electronic form or format.
Information Provided By PRIA, FOIA, and The Privacy Act:
Quote:
request records including verification of the medical certificate, pilot or mechanic certificate, or any other authorized certificate held by an airman (generally under 14 CFR Part 91), accident and incident information, and FAA enforcement information
What's records are we talking about here that are released under a FOIA request? In short - everything but the info on your medical application relating to medical issues!
Information Provided By PRIA, FOIA, and The Privacy Act:
Quote:
When AFS-620 (PRIA) responds to requests through the Pilot Records Improvement Act (PRIA), ONLY final certificate actions fully adjudicated and closed, resulting in a finding of a violation and not subsequently overturned, are required to be released by PRIA.
Enforcement information pertaining to no actions, administrative actions, or certificate actions that are in process (pending) or under appeal, are NOT released under PRIA; however, this information MAY be released when a FOIA request has been received.
The Privacy Act provides for the right of an airman to request the identities of persons outside of U.S. Government agencies who have requested and received information pertaining to that individual [so does a PRIA request]. Under a FOIA request, however, there are no such accounting provisions for an airman to know if another person has made a request concerning their records.
No actions and administrative actions are not included in the official FAA Enforcement Records Expunction Policy since they were already being expunged prior to the publishing of the official expunction policy.
Information entered as a result of the Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP) are NOT releasable under FOIA or the Privacy Act.
I gotta' tell you, after reading these two documents, I find it has a "chilling effect" on my expectations of privacy with the FAA. I see an issue here that could be exploited (or maybe I just have a devious mind), but I'm not saying anything more about it on a public forum for fear I'm not the only one with a devious mind.
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All very good points. It's the quickest trial I have ever seen. Judge and jury and judgment in less than a week from the incident.
(even though a emergency revocation of an ATP license was published prior to the certified revocation being received by the pilot). The media is allowed to make a FOIA request. The FAA has 20 days to process the request (but could process it immediately if they so choose). If the request is proper (agreeing to pay fees, properly filling out the form, etc, known as a "perfected request"), then the FAA will release "all records" 
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