I was up in an ATC tower on monday, and asked the controllers what they thought had happened...they all laughed and said that there could be no way that those pilot missed all of those calls without being asleep.
I was up in an ATC tower on monday, and asked the controllers what they thought had happened...they all laughed and said that there could be no way that those pilot missed all of those calls without being asleep.
SURE there is. With all due respect, an ATC professional wouldn't be the SME (subject matter expert) here.
How about this plausible scenario.
They get to cruise, take off their headets. Turn on the over head speakers. The speakers are inop or not working properly. Or, they accidentally hit the radio control knob and changed the frequency by accident.
Either way, is it possible. With the first situation, I have seen guys do this time and time again. Which is why, I never take off my telex. Call me crazy.
With the second situation, I have accidently hit the radio knob, changed frequencies, but the new frequency was the same center but another controller. Sounded like Atlanta Center. Was Atlanta Center. Just the wrong Atlanta Center.
So there. Two very possible situations. Take that to the tower geeks.
Either way, no matter what, it doesn't explain why they #1. weren't listening to guard. #2. why they lost track of time.
As I said before, had they been asleep, this would have been done and over with and they would still be flying for NWA. But they knew better to lie because if it ever got out that they did, they would be criminals.
For the guys who fly international, if you don't have SELCAL like us in the military, I've heard Air Inc. try for hours trying to get ahold of certain airline crews. In fact, in one instance, I was asked by Air Inc to radio them on airline common and guard since we were the closest and as such, the loudest on the radio. Happens all the time.
It is real hard to believe they weren't asleep. Most of us can probably remember getting in trouble as a kid and lying a lie that made it worse than the truth in the heat of the moment. Maybe at first, in that hot-faced panic, they might have thought anything would sound safer than the crew being totally asleep. Maybe that thought didn't get to percolate, though, because they had to handle the uncomfortable business at hand and get to the airfield.
"We we're in a heated discussion...no wait, we were engrossed in our laptops, yeah! Not asleep, not totally out of control, just distracted with non-essential company 'business'". Then, maybe, it suddenly dawned on them that the public, DAL/NWA, and the FAA are hating the idea of total, conscious loss of SA even worse than a poor sleeping crew, victimized by human limitations.
I buy into the wisdom that lying to the Company and FAA is the worst thing you could do, so I'd like to believe that they haven't. It is really, really difficult to imagine flying that long without getting that eerie feeling that you are out of the loop, though. Waking up and making stupid decisions on a background issue, while trying to fly an airplane with a red face, I can easily imagine.
I wasn't there. I've made mistakes and been very fortunate. So I definitely am not passing judgment. I'm just sayin'...
__________________
"Laughing out loud in fear and hope, I've got a des-per-ate plan!" -NP
They were careless and endangered the lives of every passenger and crew member on that aircraft. MAINTIAN SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. Another example of stupid, careless mistakes that further degrade the profession. They were sleeping, nobody misses that many radio calls and other attempts at contact.
How long have you been flying transport jet aircraft across the USA? If you have and you say you have never flown out of radio contact with an ATC facility (your fault or theirs) you are lying. I am not condoning anyones actions but for everyone to crucify these guys is crazy.
I am with everyone else that it seems impossible for the account of what these pilots said. But to me that leads to its credibility, if one was going to lie the story should at least be plausible. Plus both NWA and DAL have a long history of standing behind their pilots that screw up but come clean. This combined with our ASAP and FOQA programs would be reason enough to be honest.
My person beef right now is that due process was not afforded these pilots. Their certificates were revoked in record time due to the media and political pressure.
SURE there is. With all due respect, an ATC professional wouldn't be the SME (subject matter expert) here.
How about this plausible scenario.
They get to cruise, take off their headets. Turn on the over head speakers. The speakers are inop or not working properly. Or, they accidentally hit the radio control knob and changed the frequency by accident.
Either way, is it possible. With the first situation, I have seen guys do this time and time again. Which is why, I never take off my telex. Call me crazy.
With the second situation, I have accidently hit the radio knob, changed frequencies, but the new frequency was the same center but another controller. Sounded like Atlanta Center. Was Atlanta Center. Just the wrong Atlanta Center.
So there. Two very possible situations. Take that to the tower geeks.
Either way, no matter what, it doesn't explain why they #1. weren't listening to guard. #2. why they lost track of time.
As I said before, had they been asleep, this would have been done and over with and they would still be flying for NWA. But they knew better to lie because if it ever got out that they did, they would be criminals.
For the guys who fly international, if you don't have SELCAL like us in the military, I've heard Air Inc. try for hours trying to get ahold of certain airline crews. In fact, in one instance, I was asked by Air Inc to radio them on airline common and guard since we were the closest and as such, the loudest on the radio. Happens all the time.
I actually briefly considered that scenario as a possible theory... but it doesn't work.
If they did indeed take off their headsets and started listening to ATC through the speakers, and the speakers weren't working. Don't you think that after 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes of radio silence they might begin to suspect a problem??
Doesn't make sense...
__________________
"If it weren't for sexual fantasies, I'd have no goals at all"
Position: "...that's right, ma'am: not a 'pilot', just a 'co-pilot'..."
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWA320pilot
How long have you been flying transport jet aircraft across the USA? If you have and you say you have never flown out of radio contact with an ATC facility (your fault or theirs) you are lying. I am not condoning anyones actions but for everyone to crucify these guys is crazy.
I am with everyone else that it seems impossible for the account of what these pilots said. But to me that leads to its credibility, if one was going to lie the story should at least be plausible. Plus both NWA and DAL have a long history of standing behind their pilots that screw up but come clean. This combined with our ASAP and FOQA programs would be reason enough to be honest.
My person beef right now is that due process was not afforded these pilots. Their certificates were revoked in record time due to the media and political pressure.
Exactly. I won't defend people at all costs: lines must be drawn somewhere. Some mistakes do require punishment. But that doesn't mean we can trample all over due process. The mob mentality that some exhibited here is disappointing. These guys were convicted in the court of public opinion before any reflection, or any facts, were injected into the process.
[quote=NWA320pilot;703636]How long have you been flying transport jet aircraft across the USA? If you have and you say you have never flown out of radio contact with an ATC facility (your fault or theirs) you are lying. I am not condoning anyones actions but for everyone to crucify these guys is crazy.
NWA320,
We have all experienced what you describe - but how many of us just cruised along for over an hour overflying our destination?
These guys deserve due process but I cannot in my mind come up with anything that permits a happy ending for them. The lost comm is part of it, but the apparant lack of SA, no matter what the cause, seems inexcuseable.
I just hope the result of all this is not some knee jerk reactions which will negatively affect all of us, permanently, but I fear this will be the result.
Bottom line - the investigation will play out, in public unfortunately, and eventually we will find out exactly what happened.
Similar Threads
Linear Mode
