If theoretically the Delta pilots had the lowest pilot cost in the industry and mngt. still had the opportunity to outsource some of our flying, do you think they still would?
I'm thinking they would. Mngt. would still diversify the flying to the point that they could whipsaw the pilot groups against each other. Thus, perpetually keeping their pilot cost low.
So is outsourcing the direct result of having passengers pay an extra $1.25 a ticket? Could there just be an little bit of truth that a lack of vision by a pilot group and or their union is responsible for the outsourcing?
Weren't you a TWA pilot whose wage rates undercut the rest of the pax industry for years?
Seems like the "pair" needs fuzzying up closer to home!
Slow,
Are you making that point that we shouldn't stand firm to drive up pilot wages? I mean neither point is really constructive. What do you suggest we do?
New K Now
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Choice is an illusion, between those with power, and those without.
If theoretically the Delta pilots had the lowest pilot cost in the industry and mngt. still had the opportunity to outsource some of our flying, do you think they still would?
I'm thinking they would. Mngt. would still diversify the flying to the point that they could whipsaw the pilot groups against each other. Thus, perpetually keeping their pilot cost low.
So is outsourcing the direct result of having passengers pay an extra $1.25 a ticket? Could there just be an little bit of truth that a lack of vision by a pilot group and or their union is responsible for the outsourcing?
I think mgmt has ONLY the stock price in mind. If they can outsource and get the flying done for less, they will do it. Very short term thinking...we pay these folks millions and they can't think strategically. Hell, we teach Majors in the DOD how to do that!!! You get what you pay for. Outsourcing brings about a watered-down product. That will hurt business in the end.
Customer service? Who needs it right? People still HAVE to fly?!?! (That is the attitude I think some mgmt types have)
It also saddens me that we are run on whatever "survey" is current at the time. ON TIME DEPARTURE...no wait..now it's ON TIME ARRIVALS....if the pax all checked "FREE BEANIE BABYs" Wed be yelled at to give those out. How about departing whenever, arriving as close to ON TIME as we can, but do it in such a way that the folks want to fly with us every opportunity they get. Who cares if we push 5 late if that customer made it on with their bags pink tagged and was happy with their service???!!?!?
Rant over
Jetblue pilots cost less then half of what a SWA guy makes. Airline pilot wages still have a long way yet to sink.
There is no quality issue. It just is not true that pilots who make less money are any worse at their jobs. Outsourcing will not effect quality or productivity. Pilots have proven, and continue to do so everyday, that they will work for less.
Currently Jetblue is on the bottom. New companies like Skybus and Virgin America will continue to enter the market. Companies will continue to win concessions from their workers and drive wages even lower until we arrive at the true bottom. The place where qualified pilots will not apply for the job or will walk away from the profession in significant numbers. In that regard we still have a long way to go.
Skyhigh
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Work smart. Work to live. Don't live to work.
Weren't you a TWA pilot whose wage rates undercut the rest of the pax industry for years?
Seems like the "pair" needs fuzzying up closer to home!
If you didn't understand what I said when you asked that same question on the DALPA Forum, then you aren't going to somehow magically comprehend it this time. Apples and oranges, actually... but I think you probably know that and just like to misdirect when the facts don't reflect so well for the track record of your guys. Whether it's the DALPA Forum or APC, here you are still running the same tired old playbook! Have fun!
With regard to pilot pay, management is looking at the tip of the iceberg. If management gives pilots their due, then next will be the F/As, then the mechanics, then the rampers, then the gate agents, on and on and before you know it that management team will be ousted and the next group of MBAers will come in and start the cycle again.
When I was hired at the big airline in 1980, it took me exactly 14 months to make what I made as an 0-3 in the Navy. We are all familiar with the downturn of the industry and subsequent pay issues. Back then the regionals (Piedmont, Ozark, PSA, Mohawk, Republic, Hughes AirWest, Southern, etc) all paid a decent wage after probation. When Air Florida, New York Air, People's Express (to name a few) began their tug from below, the game was on.
Anyone have a solution? We all know the problem, but what is the realistic solution? Are the airlines in a position to not only pay their pilots their historic due, but what about a $60-70,000 a year flight attendant? You can't expect your pay as a pilot to increase without regard to the rest of the employees. It's sad really.
$60-70k a year for a long-time FA is probably not too unrealistic in New York or other high cost areas. Actually, however, comparing/indexing pilot compensation to other airline workers doesn't jive. The education and experience qualifications needed to fly an airliner are not comparable in any fashion to a FA or ramper. It's probably closer to a mechanic, but even then the defacto entry requirement of a college degree plus thousands of hours of flight time are above that.
then the rampers, then the gate agents, on and on...
You can't expect your pay as a pilot to increase without regard to the rest of the employees. It's sad really.
I would fully expect rampies and gate agents to all get raises if management had squeezed them back to what they made in 1987 - $3.35/hour.
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