newKnow

Luv,

I should have said that DAL 737 Captains were supposed to make $229.67 per hour in 2004 from the contract they ratified in 2001.

They (DAL) signed that contract for (UAL rates +1%), less than a year after United signed theirs.

I can't find the specifics right now, but if I remember correctly, 747-400 captains were to make well over $300 per hour. I know one of my fraternity brothers was making over $190 per hour as a 5-6 year 747-400 FO.

Those are the rates I was talking about when I said it seems we are starting to "get back to," and you are right, I will let ae explain what he meant.

But, for me, the year 2000, those were tha days!!! <hear the Archie Bunker theme tune>

__________________
Choice is an illusion, between those with power, and those without.

newKnow

Woaah,

You must have been editing when I was responding. My above post was in response to everything before the liar part.

As I said above, I can't find the UAL or DAL 2000 + 2001 contract online anymore. But, everyone knows that they both signed HUGE contracts in those years. I am not trying to brag or take credit for those contracts, because I work/worked for Northwest.

I went and tried to google the payrates and only came up with bits and pieces of the DAL contract that was posted on another forum. (I will post it below in another box to avoid confusion)

At this point, all I can do is ask a pilot from one of those groups to verify that I am not a liar.

New K Now

And thanks for informing me about pay and scope. I've been on strike for those issues already and would do it again in a heartbeat.

__________________
Choice is an illusion, between those with power, and those without.

LuvJockey

Credit for you, I was editing...

Shouldn't have called you a liar....

Okay, thanks. SWA Captains are SUPPOSED to make $210 per hour in 2011 straight hourly wage. I don't know what wage DAL eventually achieved, but now I guess we are to 2004 instead of 2000.

I guess if you're expecting SWA to pay 747 wages in a 737, then we can all collectively wring our hands and sing "those were the days."

YouTube - All In The Family TV Show Opening Theme Season One 1971

This isn't a bad contract, it's raising the bar beyond any realized rates that I've seen.

newKnow

Here is the part of the old DAL contract that I got from another forum.

737 Captain (I assume) payrates are in bold.


* Rates represent 1% more than UAL on all aircraft for the entire duration
of the contract
* Rates on 5/1/04 vary from 24% to 39% over present book on the mainline and
63% at Express (note: 4/22/01 code-a-phone message contained typo regarding
pay rates; incorrectly stated range was 24% to 34% rather than 39%)
* Increased first year pay from $36.03 to $48 ($50/52/54/56 in 01/02/03/04
respectively)
* Increase new-hire pilots training pay from $2000 to $2,750 per month

Retroactivity
* Full retroactivity on wages back to 5/1/00
* Mainline B-737-200 retro pay based on B-737-300 pay rate
* Full retroactivity on International override back to 5/1/00
* ALL RETRO PAY IS PENSIONABLE ( any pilot who retired on or after May 2,
2000 or later will receive a retro check and have his retirement pay
recomputed)

* B-757, B-767-200 and B-767-300 combined at B-767-300ER rates
* MD90 rate matches B-727 rate
* International override increased from $6.50 to $8.00. Override applied IAW
present rules
* Night pay of $15/$10/$5 per hour for Capt/FO/SO for all ops between 2300
and 0559 airport of last departure time

Section 3F (New Aircraft Models)
* Company to notify ALPA of intent to acquire new aircraft model
* Meetings to negotiate pay and work rules to start within 15 days, to last
no more than 90 days
* If no agreement, either side may submit issues to five-member system board
of adjustment
* Board must render decision within 60 days
* Board to give controlling weight to aircraft mission, rates of pay and
work rules of most closely comparable aircraft models in terms of speed,
passenger capacity, range, fuel economy and gross weight and at the three
other largest domestic air carriers
* Company can establish pay and work rules for training and flying pending
outcome of negotiations or arbitration
* Agreement or award retroactive to date of first conversion

Delta Express
* Some differences from the mainline still exist but are now reflected in
each contract section where appropriate. To compensate for the pay
differential, there is a five hour thirty minute duty period average for
Delta Express enabling a pilot to be credited with more flying per duty day.
* Provide 62.9% pay raise over three years for pilots in Delta Express
categories as follows:

Current Rate 5/1/00 5/1/01 5/1/02
5/1/03 5/1/04
126.95 148.19 161.08 175.27
190.42 206.79

* Allow the introduction of B-737-700 aircraft to be used on Delta Express
system with pay as follows:

Current Rate 5/1/00 5/1/01 5/1/02
5/1/03 5/1/04
N/A N/A 178.89 194.65
211.47 229.67
* Establish Designated Monthly Maximum (Cap) of 75-85 hours
* Pay guarantees as follows:
o 75:00 reserve guarantee
o 5:30 Duty Period Average for rotation and line construction resulting in:
* 15 days max for 85 hour cap
* 13 days max for 75 hour cap
o 5:30 DPA "look back" for regular line holders raised from 4:30
o 5:30 DPA "look back" for reserve line holders
* 14 duty periods breaks guarantee
* 15 duty periods = 82:30
* Pilots rerouted to mainline paid as follows and mainline work rules apply:
o B-737-200 pilots paid mainline B-737-300 rates
o B-737-700 pilots paid B-737-800 rates
Premium pay increased from 1.5 to 2 times hourly rate
* Eliminate reserve system differences (DEX same as new mainline rules)
* Elimination of X-day proration for training
* Daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly flying limits eliminated (cap now in place)
* Provide re-bid mechanism to ensure proper seniority of pilots in DEX
category in consideration of higher pay and improved work rules

__________________
Choice is an illusion, between those with power, and those without.

LuvJockey

Thanks, that was helpful. According to it, the DAL captain rate (2004) minimum was $229.67 at 5.5 hours per day or 1263.18 per day. The new SWA pay rate is about $210 per hour with slightly better guarantees.

Again, I only mentioned the first officer rates - do you have those?

Note to bystanders - we are now moving from 2000 to 2004 rates in the discussion of "those were the days" (newKnow hasn't changed the discussion, it has progressed from another poster, credit to him because he seems to be honest)

What I'm getting at is that the hand-wringing of how good it used to be is really bogus from where I am sitting - just moving the discussion forward. Waiting for the JetBlue E190 guy to say how saddening this all is...

Spanky189

Well 12% Voted NO. Maybe they don't believe the alledged codeshare/scope protections are as strong as some believe. Prove me wrong but when management slips through a contract that gives the pilots more money while opening a back door for limited international code share, they have long term plans. Current management promises that they won't abuse that loophole but who knows about the future?

What happens X years later when there is a change at the top and the 'camels nose is in the tent'? SWA pilots don't have the unity or fortitude to sacrifice/strike to prevent that loopholes' exploitation. [See UAL, DAL, AMR, etc]

I think it would have been better for SWAPA to hold out for ZERO loopholes preventing SWA pax from flying on any aircraft flown by pilots not on the SWA seniority list. Better for everyone in the long run. It is definitely a one-way street. If you give an inch now, SWA will want 3 feet to get it out of any future contract!

LuvJockey

That's fair, you can vote however you please. For me, 4% code share is a whole lot less than our old contract allowed. Prove me wrong, probably a good topic for a company specific board, nobody here cares about much other than the pay rate. Our internal squabbles probably won't make sense to anyone who reads them. And by the way, I voted "no".

FlyJSH

Congrats on a positive contract.

Perhaps I missed it, but what specifically are the scope limits? I ask for of us those who are ignorant and want to learn from our elders

__________________
Fly or monitor, I get paid the same.

dojetdriver

$355.82 at the end of the CBA.

Think about that, just shy of $6 a MINUTE.

aewanabe

LuvJockey, try backing off the defensiveness a shade. Show me where I've bashed your group or said you should have done better? Or where I've said pay is the most important thing? I'll recap; I think it's great you improved both pay and scope in the same CBA, that's rare to unheard of in this environment. I think (lack of) scope is the number one issue here at B6, and want my coworkers to keep focused on it and a CBA instead of being fooled by the raise we just received.

Pre TA, your second-year narrowbody FO compensation is tops for everyone not named UPS or Fedex. You said your 8-year guys will make about 138/hr in the right seat. Those are both great. In 2000 I was working for AA in a ground position, and IIRC correctly second-year MD80 guys were making in the neighborhood of 110/hr, and more on the 737 and 757. (And yes, there were second-year 757 drivers at AA then). Similar stories at UA and DL after C2000, and those guys all had A-plans. Like newK, I've tried to find the actual numbers to back this up with no success.

So it's relevant to point out how much been taken from the profession in the past decade and how long it's taking us to return. No hand-wringing, just facts. Sorry that bugs you.