How is the AA BK different from the others?
02-26-2012, 07:38 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by aa73
I need some good, objective opinions on this question. As you all know, it is nothing but doom and gloom over here regarding what's headed our way. I have always been one of the VERY few optimistic ones that think AMR will turn around and prosper into a world class airline within a few years....
OK, please give it to me straight:
73
OK, please give it to me straight:
73
Originally Posted by Timbo
2. When I read your 1113 term sheat, I was surprised, it is MUCH better than what Delta threw at us. In fact, yours today is about what we finally ended up with, after about a year of 'negotiating'.
Your term sheet and Delta's 1113C proposal were remarkably similar. Pre-merger Delta opened for 200 79 seat jets (previous 70 seat jet limit), your guys opened for 255 88 seat jets. In our case, management got 15 76 seat jets with a growth to 30 based on mainline fleet.
The disability and sick plans proposed by the two companies are similar, with yours having the "managed care" piece. We kept the definition of disabled as unable to exercise a first class medical. Your management wants Social Security definition (unable to do any work in any field). Sick got a rolling 300 hours over 3 years at full pay (our bank recharges but does not roll over to 240 annual hours every June 1 if you've been here 9 years) with the rest at 75%. Your guys want 36 hours or two occurences at full pay, then 60% after that.
Both companies basically proposed FARs for work rules and no rigs. We kept almost all of our rigs and rules.
Originally Posted by Timbo
AA's bankruptcy is no different than the others, except they are late to the party, so they get to dance with the fat chicks. All the pretty airlines have merged, so there ain't much left to choose from.
The one thing for certain, nobody on Wall Street cares what the AA Pilots think, and no amount of AA Pilot concessions can save the airline if Management has other ideas, ie. merger, or chop-shop. It's not all about the Pilots. Management is going to screw everyone. They are going to dump the leases in St. Louis, they got with TWA, they are going to 'restructure' all their debt. Screwing the Pilots is just icing on the cake, but you are not the only target here. So keep your chin up, go to work, fly safe, don't become a statistic because you will be distracted when talking about all this crap in the cockpit, no doubt.
The one thing for certain, nobody on Wall Street cares what the AA Pilots think, and no amount of AA Pilot concessions can save the airline if Management has other ideas, ie. merger, or chop-shop. It's not all about the Pilots. Management is going to screw everyone. They are going to dump the leases in St. Louis, they got with TWA, they are going to 'restructure' all their debt. Screwing the Pilots is just icing on the cake, but you are not the only target here. So keep your chin up, go to work, fly safe, don't become a statistic because you will be distracted when talking about all this crap in the cockpit, no doubt.
The biggest difference I see not discussed for AMR is the change in the financial climate. DAL, LCC, UAL, and NWA all had ready access to the credit markets. Now, not so much. While AMR doesn't plan for DIP financing, I'm sure the current oil markets aren't making their business plan any easier. You guys lost over $1 billion real dollars last year. Also, PBGC has learned alot from UAL and DAL pension terminations. They're being way more aggressive with your management and the $4 billion in cash that AMR has.
Bankruptcy is no fun. Good luck.
02-27-2012, 12:14 PM
#12
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by samballs
Being at both OH and eagle, I can tell you the relationship between the mainline and wholly owned are 180 of each other. When I jump seat on DL now a days I still don't bring up OH, it just makes the flight to quiet.
02-27-2012, 01:38 PM
#13
Not on Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: Seat 0A
Posts: 117
The reason it seems worse for you is that is now happening to you. At UA we took huge hits to every aspect of our career.
You will make it through this, hopefully with your pension somewhat preserved. The PBGC is not willing to take you pension over as willingly as ours.
The worst news you hear won't come true. The best news you hear won't come true.
You will make it through this, hopefully with your pension somewhat preserved. The PBGC is not willing to take you pension over as willingly as ours.
The worst news you hear won't come true. The best news you hear won't come true.
02-27-2012, 02:35 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 530
China Lures U.S. Pilots Tired of 14-Year Wait for Captain
Interesting article, perhaps what most already know, but combined with age 65 it will be interesting to see what happens in the industry over the next decade.
Interesting article, perhaps what most already know, but combined with age 65 it will be interesting to see what happens in the industry over the next decade.
02-28-2012, 06:57 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by Timbo
I was amazed your 1113 sheet had RAISES (although tiny), but no pay cuts.
The devil is in the details: no pay cuts up front but elimination of night + int'l override PLUS the proposed pay banding vs. equipment pay = a pay cut for many of us.
Our negotiators continue with their counter proposals but the company has not indicated any initiative to budge. Looks like it might be getting ugly here soon. Many of our pilots really think AMR is the next Eastern based on this. I continue to remain confident we will hash out a deal and AMR will emerge - but the APA needs to start playing hard ball for that to happen.
02-28-2012, 07:16 AM
#17
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,722
Yup, we heard the same things (re. Eastern) when we were in BK. And Management (along with Wall Street) is giong to blame YOU GREEDY PILOTS for 'high costs' too.
But that sick leave proposal is...Sick!
But that sick leave proposal is...Sick!
Last edited by Timbo; 02-28-2012 at 11:36 AM. Reason: sp nazi
02-28-2012, 08:12 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
One of the most important changes for AA vs. all the others that have declared is the competitive landscape that AA faces when trying to emerge. It's going to be very hard to shrink your airline while simultaneously trying to compete with the global behemoths that United/Star and Delta/Skyteam have turned into. I'm sure someone smarter than me can do this point more justice, but I just don't see how shrinking, or either of the USAir/JB/etc. merger possibilities often mentioned will allow AA to even come close to the revenue generation machines that United and DAL are now.
I certainly don't mean this as a slam on AA, and I'm not bragging on my airline...just making the point that the competitive environment is significantly changed from 5 years ago. I have several good friends at AA, and I hope you guys come out of this in great shape.
I certainly don't mean this as a slam on AA, and I'm not bragging on my airline...just making the point that the competitive environment is significantly changed from 5 years ago. I have several good friends at AA, and I hope you guys come out of this in great shape.
02-28-2012, 11:24 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 330Fo
Posts: 215
AA73,
It is sad we are even having this conversation. Slowplay posted some good facts so I won't repeat those.
-Nwa-our Doom and Gloom was not over whether we would survive or not but was more over the re-numeration that was occurring in our industry and at Northwest, putting pilot compensation at middle to lower middle class wages.
-Scope we made a deal and were willing to go to the mat over it for compass, giving us control and protection. Carl has well emoted that one of the valuable assets an airline has is its brand name and yet management teams, in this case Amr, seem desirous to outsource what is most valuable to them. It's as if they think there are an infinite number of pilots who are willing to work for food stamp wages and that passengers do not notice any difference between an RJ and a mainline flight. This definitely might not be the case if the FAA increases the min hrs for a FO to 1500. This maybe a classic case of be careful of what you wish for as you may get it. Specifically, if Amr gets the scope they want five years from the viewpoint of a broken/fractured product they'll be asking 'why' they gave away their most valuable asset, their brand name, to a dci that is detached and doesn't care, except of course for keeping its costs low.
Doom and Gloom for American? I'd say no as I believe a mass merger will occur. You will keep your job you just might not like your paycheck. But, that's what the first Doom and Gloom was all about.
It is sad we are even having this conversation. Slowplay posted some good facts so I won't repeat those.
-Nwa-our Doom and Gloom was not over whether we would survive or not but was more over the re-numeration that was occurring in our industry and at Northwest, putting pilot compensation at middle to lower middle class wages.
-Scope we made a deal and were willing to go to the mat over it for compass, giving us control and protection. Carl has well emoted that one of the valuable assets an airline has is its brand name and yet management teams, in this case Amr, seem desirous to outsource what is most valuable to them. It's as if they think there are an infinite number of pilots who are willing to work for food stamp wages and that passengers do not notice any difference between an RJ and a mainline flight. This definitely might not be the case if the FAA increases the min hrs for a FO to 1500. This maybe a classic case of be careful of what you wish for as you may get it. Specifically, if Amr gets the scope they want five years from the viewpoint of a broken/fractured product they'll be asking 'why' they gave away their most valuable asset, their brand name, to a dci that is detached and doesn't care, except of course for keeping its costs low.
Doom and Gloom for American? I'd say no as I believe a mass merger will occur. You will keep your job you just might not like your paycheck. But, that's what the first Doom and Gloom was all about.
