US Airways/America West JCBA
10-10-2012, 08:25 AM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by cactiboss
Right, the fact you created a situation where you have a much cheaper pilot group has nothing to do with where the airplanes go. BTW tell us again how the east powerhouse bought little awa and saved my job?
US didn't buy AWA and save your job. The managers of the company decided that a MERGER was the best for both companies and the money raised for it saved ALL of our jobs, at least most of them and according to Parker way more than would have been had we not merged.
"First off, as to the … the stagnation of growth, for America West pilots since the
merger – what I will tell you is, and this is a hard thing to communicate to people but I believe
it with all my heart: If we didn’t do the merger with US Airways, you’d be in a lot worse
position. Frankly, I think as a 3 [year] F/O, you wouldn’t have a job."
If a 3 year F/O would not have had a job, how would a 7 year captain have kept his seat? Again, you are just angry that you have been prevented from an east pilots captain seat, or widebody F/O seat. And tell me a couple other things:
1) How much money did AWA invest in the merger?
2) What money paid off the AWA ATSB loan?
Separate ops cacti. That is what has kept you from cashing your lottery ticket. (for non-US pilots those are Scott Kirby's, US Airways President, words)
Last edited by R57 relay; 10-10-2012 at 08:39 AM.
10-10-2012, 08:44 AM
#92
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by R57 relay
How cheap is it for the company to force more block hours into the PHX base than the operation supports? How much time do you spend flying routes that AWA never flew because they had to put those new A321s out west to keep it at min fleet? I rarely fly a route that US didn't fly. They have us flying what the F100 and 737s used to fly while you guys fly the transcon stuff to meet your min block. The Ramada in PHL looks like a west crew room! Both sides are at or very near the min fleet provision. Parker doesn't want to grow, so there is little choice about where to put the flying.
US didn't buy AWA and save your job. The managers of the company decided that a MERGER was the best for both companies and the money raised for it saved ALL of our jobs, at least most of them and according to Parker way more than would have been had we not merged.
"First off, as to the … the stagnation of growth, for America West pilots since the
merger – what I will tell you is, and this is a hard thing to communicate to people but I believe
it with all my heart: If we didn’t do the merger with US Airways, you’d be in a lot worse
position. Frankly, I think as a 3 [year] F/O, you wouldn’t have a job."
If a 3 year F/O would not have had a job, how would a 7 year captain have kept his seat? Again, you are just angry that you have been prevented from an east pilots captain seat, or widebody F/O seat. And tell me a couple other things:
1) How much money did AWA invest in the merger?
2) What money paid off the AWA ATSB loan?
Separate ops cacti. That is what has kept you from cashing your lottery ticket. (for non-US pilots those are Scott Kirby's, US Airways President, words)
US didn't buy AWA and save your job. The managers of the company decided that a MERGER was the best for both companies and the money raised for it saved ALL of our jobs, at least most of them and according to Parker way more than would have been had we not merged.
"First off, as to the … the stagnation of growth, for America West pilots since the
merger – what I will tell you is, and this is a hard thing to communicate to people but I believe
it with all my heart: If we didn’t do the merger with US Airways, you’d be in a lot worse
position. Frankly, I think as a 3 [year] F/O, you wouldn’t have a job."
If a 3 year F/O would not have had a job, how would a 7 year captain have kept his seat? Again, you are just angry that you have been prevented from an east pilots captain seat, or widebody F/O seat. And tell me a couple other things:
1) How much money did AWA invest in the merger?
2) What money paid off the AWA ATSB loan?
Separate ops cacti. That is what has kept you from cashing your lottery ticket. (for non-US pilots those are Scott Kirby's, US Airways President, words)
10-10-2012, 08:51 AM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by cactiboss
So the bottom line is the east should get all benefits of the merger. I love how you take decisions made 3 years after the merger as proof the west was in trouble. The combined airline has been hiring pilots for awhile, yet the west has furloughs and stagnates more proof of how bad off the west was in 2005. Of course usapa forcing separate ops unless the west agrees to be stapled and east pilots running flight ops have nothing to do with it.
10-10-2012, 09:04 AM
#94
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by R57 relay
I don't think the former east guys running flt ops has anything to do with it because they don't care either way. But, YES, USAPA forcing separate ops has everything to do with it! I think learning has occurred! It's just that it would be that way not matter what the reason for the separate ops and I think we would still be separate USAPA or not. You might have noticed that our F/As are also 7 years into separate ops, have turned down 2 T/A and are looking at a strike vote. They have no seniority fight and haven't been able to get a contract worth voting for. With the Nic why do you think we could have?
Last edited by cactiboss; 10-10-2012 at 09:17 AM.
10-10-2012, 10:49 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by cactiboss
You know what? Majority wins and can impose whatever list benefits them most, good for you. If you don't get what you ask for in a neutral arbitration just form your own union and take it. Why have a list that gives you 3 out of 4 upgrades when you can take them all. I am sure usapa will be looked at as a great success by future generations of airline pilots
Have a good day.
10-10-2012, 11:50 AM
#96
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by R57 relay
Have you looked in the mirror? You used the "dummy" term. You are condescending with your pronouncements. I actually agree with some of them, it's your tone and what I see as arrogance that gets me.
You will see in my info that it says position it says A320. That's what I usually say when I say what I fly, as that is the basic type. The 321 was referenced above that, it's generally what we use east west.
Will the other mods talk to you?
You will see in my info that it says position it says A320. That's what I usually say when I say what I fly, as that is the basic type. The 321 was referenced above that, it's generally what we use east west.
Will the other mods talk to you?
I used the dummy term to describe the DOH or die types, which you are not, right? That group is running into a brick wall over and over while loudly proclaiming they will be successful. Just does not bode well in looking particularly smart.
For the A319 thing, I was poking at you trying to say I know nothing about the east, but you knew that, right?
10-10-2012, 12:00 PM
#97
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by R57 relay
But if you only read the documents that interested you, then you are not completely educated on the topic. I think I said this in another post, but will repeat it. You guys were getting hammered by other pilots about your new contract. I wasn't going to do that because I was too lazy to actually read all the documents, even if I had access to them. Even though your contract will affect all airline pilots in someway, I had no say. The actual yes/no was none of my business. If asked an opinion on a certain topic I would have been glad to ask questions and then give it, but I wasn't going to stick my nose in it. Same with the AA pilots vote on their TA. I was surprised to see all the other guys with no skin in the game jumping in. I just wished them luck in their decision.
I agree with you about the process. As a matter of fact I have told my west friends that all they really need to say is " I understand that you don't like the outcome of the process. The thing is, it was the process we had to follow and we followed it and played by the rules. We didn't do anything to you, the arbitrator did and we don't have the right to reorder the list. That would have west pilots deciding which of our pilots are winners and losers." Who could argue with that? But, when you start arguing the fairness of the Nicoalu award, then it's a whole different ballgame.
Out of all this back and forth I think the one big thing has been lost. Our transition agreement provided for separate ops until we have a joint contract-period. The reasons for not reaching that joint contract don't supersede that fact. Right now the majority of pilots at this airline do not think that what is available is worth accepting the Nicolau award. What is on the table is the Kirby proposal, not a DL contract. We might have done better and gotten to a contract that did make accepting the Nic worth it, but the legal battles knocked us off the tracks. Maybe Judge Silver's ruling will change that soon.
I agree with you about the process. As a matter of fact I have told my west friends that all they really need to say is " I understand that you don't like the outcome of the process. The thing is, it was the process we had to follow and we followed it and played by the rules. We didn't do anything to you, the arbitrator did and we don't have the right to reorder the list. That would have west pilots deciding which of our pilots are winners and losers." Who could argue with that? But, when you start arguing the fairness of the Nicoalu award, then it's a whole different ballgame.
Out of all this back and forth I think the one big thing has been lost. Our transition agreement provided for separate ops until we have a joint contract-period. The reasons for not reaching that joint contract don't supersede that fact. Right now the majority of pilots at this airline do not think that what is available is worth accepting the Nicolau award. What is on the table is the Kirby proposal, not a DL contract. We might have done better and gotten to a contract that did make accepting the Nic worth it, but the legal battles knocked us off the tracks. Maybe Judge Silver's ruling will change that soon.
As far as a hammering from other pilots on our new contract, I was one of the ones doing the hammering. I thought it fell far short in many critical areas with a lot of open ended promises. It is what it is now, and as of January I'll be making more than a topped out A319 (
) CA at USair. Opinion- I doubt Judge Silver's ruling will change anything. It stand by my statement that it will take an AA merger or the DOH types becoming the minority around 2020 to be able to move on and get closer to a par legacy contract.
10-10-2012, 12:14 PM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
I read the document you asked me about and many others. I figured nothing would satisfy you since you can't seem to grasp that others could read those and come to a differing conclusion. The fact is that I'm very educated on the subject as it impacts all of your peer carriers.
As far as a hammering from other pilots on our new contract, I was one of the ones doing the hammering. I thought it fell far short in many critical areas with a lot of open ended promises. It is what it is now, and as of January I'll be making more than a topped out A319 ( ) CA at USair.
Opinion- I doubt Judge Silver's ruling will change anything. It stand by my statement that it will take an AA merger or the DOH types becoming the minority around 2020 to be able to move on and get closer to a par legacy contract.
As far as a hammering from other pilots on our new contract, I was one of the ones doing the hammering. I thought it fell far short in many critical areas with a lot of open ended promises. It is what it is now, and as of January I'll be making more than a topped out A319 (
) CA at USair. Opinion- I doubt Judge Silver's ruling will change anything. It stand by my statement that it will take an AA merger or the DOH types becoming the minority around 2020 to be able to move on and get closer to a par legacy contract.
I'm glad that you will be making more than me, that means that your rates are moving towards where they should be. As an informed DL pilot you have every right to call it dog XXXX. Some guy that doesn't work for DL and is mad over some issue because it doesn't solve HIS problems doesn't. IMHO as always.
As for your opinion I really don't know. We don't know what the final language will be and the company's and AOL's reaction to it. But, I think you may be right.
10-10-2012, 02:21 PM
#99
Flies With The Hat On
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Right of the Left Seat
Posts: 1,339
10-10-2012, 02:38 PM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,483
Just saw this thread and could not resist, kind of like a fat boy and cake.
R57 - you go on and on about a sound bite Parker made at a crew news. Anytime Parker says something it's for show. Read the SEC documents on the merger - it was an acquisition because you guys were gone. AWA would have been fine, we were profitable all along and we would have merged with someone else. Anyone else would have been better. The only time you trust Parker's word is when he is signing something that can put a legal liability on himself, like accounting documents and annual reports. Parker, for whatever reason he has conceived, has pandered to the East since the merger. All his statements about fair and equitable went out the window to appease the East. Afraid of labor strife is my guess, but who knows. We got him to the dance and he left us for a fatter chick.
Back to the thread topic.
After the merger/acquisition, Vulcan mind meld or whatever we had to have the 3 conditions R57 succinctly outlined to be a merged carrier.
1 single certificate
2 Seniority List
3 Joint Contract
Single certificate was done expeditiously by putting East Flight Ops management in charge and making the merged procedures and AQP mostly East procedures. I won't comment any further, but it was done in a year.
SLI was done under the ALPA process. Negotiation, mediation, arbitration. That process was followed, the Nicolau Award resulted. Note that fairness is in the eye of the beholder and does not make a bit of difference. The process was followed and the Nic was the list.
Joint contract is a whole other ball game and really has nothing to do with where we are on the Nic dispute. After the East voted ALPA off the island, washing the West offshore as well, the Real Men of Genius at USAPA decided to throw out every TA'd section of the joint contract we had been working on. Almost all sections except for pay had been decided and USAPA threw hem all out. The company even told them "you really don't wan to do that since we will have to reopen every section". The result has been 5 years of nothing getting done except the hissy fit work slowdown on the East that got us all put under an injunction and we are parked by the NMB.
So we have the company laughing (literally) at USAPA (Cleary was a particular joke around the managerial table when he was USAPA president) and negotiations that went nowhere. Did I mention hat the USAPA negotiators were all furloughed at the time of the merger? That's real smart.
I'm not going to go into the food fight over 24 year F/Os being below West guys. All I will say is their relative positions were the same before and after on the Nic list. Their old airline ceased to exist after 2005. The list is for a new airline and the starting point is where you were when the merger took place. That is why we have a snapshot taken at the date of merger.
If AWA had merged with jetBlue some of their guys would have been senior to some of our guys on a ratioed basis. That's the way it works.
One last thing. Because USAPA got rid of ALPA we do not have two pilot groups according to the NMB. We don't have separate MECs, negotiators or ratification. That went away. So anyone calling for a redo on the list has got to start with who negotiates for the west? AOL cannot, it's just the west pilots bringing the DFR claim.
R57 - you go on and on about a sound bite Parker made at a crew news. Anytime Parker says something it's for show. Read the SEC documents on the merger - it was an acquisition because you guys were gone. AWA would have been fine, we were profitable all along and we would have merged with someone else. Anyone else would have been better. The only time you trust Parker's word is when he is signing something that can put a legal liability on himself, like accounting documents and annual reports. Parker, for whatever reason he has conceived, has pandered to the East since the merger. All his statements about fair and equitable went out the window to appease the East. Afraid of labor strife is my guess, but who knows. We got him to the dance and he left us for a fatter chick.
Back to the thread topic.
After the merger/acquisition, Vulcan mind meld or whatever we had to have the 3 conditions R57 succinctly outlined to be a merged carrier.
1 single certificate
2 Seniority List
3 Joint Contract
Single certificate was done expeditiously by putting East Flight Ops management in charge and making the merged procedures and AQP mostly East procedures. I won't comment any further, but it was done in a year.
SLI was done under the ALPA process. Negotiation, mediation, arbitration. That process was followed, the Nicolau Award resulted. Note that fairness is in the eye of the beholder and does not make a bit of difference. The process was followed and the Nic was the list.
Joint contract is a whole other ball game and really has nothing to do with where we are on the Nic dispute. After the East voted ALPA off the island, washing the West offshore as well, the Real Men of Genius at USAPA decided to throw out every TA'd section of the joint contract we had been working on. Almost all sections except for pay had been decided and USAPA threw hem all out. The company even told them "you really don't wan to do that since we will have to reopen every section". The result has been 5 years of nothing getting done except the hissy fit work slowdown on the East that got us all put under an injunction and we are parked by the NMB.
So we have the company laughing (literally) at USAPA (Cleary was a particular joke around the managerial table when he was USAPA president) and negotiations that went nowhere. Did I mention hat the USAPA negotiators were all furloughed at the time of the merger? That's real smart.
I'm not going to go into the food fight over 24 year F/Os being below West guys. All I will say is their relative positions were the same before and after on the Nic list. Their old airline ceased to exist after 2005. The list is for a new airline and the starting point is where you were when the merger took place. That is why we have a snapshot taken at the date of merger.
If AWA had merged with jetBlue some of their guys would have been senior to some of our guys on a ratioed basis. That's the way it works.
One last thing. Because USAPA got rid of ALPA we do not have two pilot groups according to the NMB. We don't have separate MECs, negotiators or ratification. That went away. So anyone calling for a redo on the list has got to start with who negotiates for the west? AOL cannot, it's just the west pilots bringing the DFR claim.
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