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Old 03-01-2015, 08:20 AM
  #3821  
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Originally Posted by clear4approach View Post
Spot on! Think negative people will be positive all of a sudden just because they're flying a plane or collecting a paycheck with a Delta, AA, or UA logo on it? Probably not.
We have a long way to go here at JB but changes happen slow and steady and there are sometimes bumps in the road. That applies to life in general too.
First year pay sucks. Don't take the job if you can't handle that financially or emotionally.
BTW doesn't Delta also make you pay for your hotel during training? Why is no one up in arms about that? I figure my new hire hotel in training probably cost the company 4-5k. I'd rather that then paying for it on my own or bunking up with some insomniac snorer fellow new hire.

Because they are Delta.
They have better pay, big planes, huge profit sharing, lots of retirements and on and on. Paying for hotels is overlooked because of everything else Delta offers. People also forget the merger the furloughs and the BK contract that took most of that stuff away.
It's really all about what you look for is what you will find.
jetBlue is a good company and can have a bright future and I am happy here but we can and should do better. We don't have those big planes(yet) and massive retirements so if we want to attract quality guys we better take care of them. To me all this seems to do is make new guys full ALPA supporters from day one.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:43 AM
  #3822  
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Originally Posted by rvr1800 View Post
Kellwolf maybe you need to read the email again. It says the pilots value for the 41 day training cycle is $3571. That's about what you get when you take $2500 PER MONTH and apply it to 41 days. You need to comprehend what you're reading before you come on here accusing the Union of being anything but 100% honest.
Sorry, I'm applying my past history with ALPA here. It's repeating itself. While we're on the subject of reading comprehension, lets look at the language of the PEA again, shall we?
Other Rates
Initial Training Pay. The Pilot shall receive $2,500 PER MONTH plus lodging during the Pilot's initial training.
The company cannot pay a new hire less than this. If you divide $2,500 by 30 (the per month thing) then multiply that by 41 (days in the training cycle), you get $3,417. This is about $100 than the "value" stated in the union e-mail. Without knowing what's included in the "value," we can't really know for sure. Also, I guess they still owe me $324.25 from new hire training as that's what I wound up being short of the "value." What we DO know is our new hires can't be paid LESS than $2,500 once they sign the PEA, which is normally in the first couple of days of class. Anything less than that is a violation of the PEA and the status quo. I'd hope our ALPA lawyers already have the grievance filed and ready to go on that one as that's pretty illegal for the company to do.

And yeah, I read the union e-mail several times because I couldn't believe what I was reading. Let's take a look again:

Change in Payment for New Hires
Now that the JetBlue Lodge has been ceremoniously opened with great fanfare, management has decided to change how a new hire is compensated during initial training. In the past, a new hire received a $2500/month stipend (pro-rated). Currently a new hire pilot has a "value" equivalent to $3571 for a 41 day training footprint. Starting next week a revised training pay for the same period will be $2857 which is $714 less cash.
If this is true, it's a violation of the status quo and illegal. The company can't change an item in the PEA without union approval no more than Delta management could change something in a Delta pilot's contract without union approval, at least not without some serious legal ramifications. So they cannot "change how a new hire is compensated during initial training." It's in black and white in the PEA.

So, either the union is misunderstanding what the "value" or they're just letting the company get away with not honoring the PEA. Sets up a bad precedent and saying "Our ALPA legal counsel has made it clear that we cannot represent new hires until after they complete IOE per the RLA—a legal limitation we cannot change." is disappointing since it's in EVERYONE'S PEA. All we'd need is one guy not a new hire to fill out a grievance, and there ya go. If the company's actually not paying new hires $2,500 a month, I'd be happy to fill out a grievance on their behalf.

So, the facts as they stand are the company MUST pay new hires $2,500 cash per month unless for some reason they don't sign the PEA.

In my experience with ALPA, they're telling the whole truth about 85% of the time. The other 15% of the time it's either a spin, miscommunication or someone fired off a communication before checking their facts. I've never seen 100% of the truth all the time from ALPA. And, yes. I was a "yes" voter. Reluctantly, though. It's more of a "demon you know" type thing for me. People need to stop assuming that ALPA is telling 100% truth all the time just because it's in a union communication.

As for the loss of the $6,000 there's not much ALPA can do about that since it's not guaranteed in the PEA. IF it's true (and again based on experience an internet post that says "an ALPA rep told me" isn't the best source), it's a big mistake on the part of the company and unfortunate. It'll cost us talent and wind up costing them a lot more than $6,000 per guy in the future.

Then again, maybe we can all calm down (myself included) and wait to hear what ACTUALLY happens from the new hire guys in class.....
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:55 AM
  #3823  
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Originally Posted by clear4approach View Post
BTW doesn't Delta also make you pay for your hotel during training? Why is no one up in arms about that? I figure my new hire hotel in training probably cost the company 4-5k. I'd rather that then paying for it on my own or bunking up with some insomniac snorer fellow new hire.
DAL does not pay for training during the 20 days of sims, and I think this should be changed. You can get a single hotel room for $1800 with breakfast and a shuttle to training. However, training pay is $3775/mo, $1275 more than JB training pay, so $2550 more over a 60 day training footprint. Add in $600 of uniforms that DAL also doesn't pay for, and you end up with about a push. BTW, you get positive space home during your breaks between sims.

As for line pay not starting till after IOE? True. So for two weeks, you have to "suffer" with DAL training pay... which coincidentally is almost exactly what you will be paid at JB for the remainder of the first year.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:20 AM
  #3824  
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Originally Posted by Kellwolf View Post
Sorry, I'm applying my past history with ALPA here. It's repeating itself. While we're on the subject of reading comprehension, lets look at the language of the PEA again, shall we?

The company cannot pay a new hire less than this. If you divide $2,500 by 30 (the per month thing) then multiply that by 41 (days in the training cycle), you get $3,417. This is about $100 than the "value" stated in the union e-mail. Without knowing what's included in the "value," we can't really know for sure. Also, I guess they still owe me $324.25 from new hire training as that's what I wound up being short of the "value." What we DO know is our new hires can't be paid LESS than $2,500 once they sign the PEA, which is normally in the first couple of days of class. Anything less than that is a violation of the PEA and the status quo. I'd hope our ALPA lawyers already have the grievance filed and ready to go on that one as that's pretty illegal for the company to do.

And yeah, I read the union e-mail several times because I couldn't believe what I was reading. Let's take a look again:



If this is true, it's a violation of the status quo and illegal. The company can't change an item in the PEA without union approval no more than Delta management could change something in a Delta pilot's contract without union approval, at least not without some serious legal ramifications. So they cannot "change how a new hire is compensated during initial training." It's in black and white in the PEA.

So, either the union is misunderstanding what the "value" or they're just letting the company get away with not honoring the PEA. Sets up a bad precedent and saying "Our ALPA legal counsel has made it clear that we cannot represent new hires until after they complete IOE per the RLA—a legal limitation we cannot change." is disappointing since it's in EVERYONE'S PEA. All we'd need is one guy not a new hire to fill out a grievance, and there ya go. If the company's actually not paying new hires $2,500 a month, I'd be happy to fill out a grievance on their behalf.

So, the facts as they stand are the company MUST pay new hires $2,500 cash per month unless for some reason they don't sign the PEA.

In my experience with ALPA, they're telling the whole truth about 85% of the time. The other 15% of the time it's either a spin, miscommunication or someone fired off a communication before checking their facts. I've never seen 100% of the truth all the time from ALPA. And, yes. I was a "yes" voter. Reluctantly, though. It's more of a "demon you know" type thing for me. People need to stop assuming that ALPA is telling 100% truth all the time just because it's in a union communication.

As for the loss of the $6,000 there's not much ALPA can do about that since it's not guaranteed in the PEA. IF it's true (and again based on experience an internet post that says "an ALPA rep told me" isn't the best source), it's a big mistake on the part of the company and unfortunate. It'll cost us talent and wind up costing them a lot more than $6,000 per guy in the future.

Then again, maybe we can all calm down (myself included) and wait to hear what ACTUALLY happens from the new hire guys in class.....
NOBODY hired after the ALPA vote can sign a PEA. They have no pea. Just an email saying they will "honor" it but can change it at any time. So they can actually do whatever they want.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:36 AM
  #3825  
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Originally Posted by Kellwolf View Post
Sorry, I'm applying my past history with ALPA here. It's repeating itself. While we're on the subject of reading comprehension, lets look at the language of the PEA again, shall we?

The company cannot pay a new hire less than this. If you divide $2,500 by 30 (the per month thing) then multiply that by 41 (days in the training cycle), you get $3,417. This is about $100 than the "value" stated in the union e-mail. Without knowing what's included in the "value," we can't really know for sure. Also, I guess they still owe me $324.25 from new hire training as that's what I wound up being short of the "value." What we DO know is our new hires can't be paid LESS than $2,500 once they sign the PEA, which is normally in the first couple of days of class. Anything less than that is a violation of the PEA and the status quo. I'd hope our ALPA lawyers already have the grievance filed and ready to go on that one as that's pretty illegal for the company to do.

And yeah, I read the union e-mail several times because I couldn't believe what I was reading. Let's take a look again:



If this is true, it's a violation of the status quo and illegal. The company can't change an item in the PEA without union approval no more than Delta management could change something in a Delta pilot's contract without union approval, at least not without some serious legal ramifications. So they cannot "change how a new hire is compensated during initial training." It's in black and white in the PEA.

So, either the union is misunderstanding what the "value" or they're just letting the company get away with not honoring the PEA. Sets up a bad precedent and saying "Our ALPA legal counsel has made it clear that we cannot represent new hires until after they complete IOE per the RLA—a legal limitation we cannot change." is disappointing since it's in EVERYONE'S PEA. All we'd need is one guy not a new hire to fill out a grievance, and there ya go. If the company's actually not paying new hires $2,500 a month, I'd be happy to fill out a grievance on their behalf.

So, the facts as they stand are the company MUST pay new hires $2,500 cash per month unless for some reason they don't sign the PEA.

In my experience with ALPA, they're telling the whole truth about 85% of the time. The other 15% of the time it's either a spin, miscommunication or someone fired off a communication before checking their facts. I've never seen 100% of the truth all the time from ALPA. And, yes. I was a "yes" voter. Reluctantly, though. It's more of a "demon you know" type thing for me. People need to stop assuming that ALPA is telling 100% truth all the time just because it's in a union communication.

As for the loss of the $6,000 there's not much ALPA can do about that since it's not guaranteed in the PEA. IF it's true (and again based on experience an internet post that says "an ALPA rep told me" isn't the best source), it's a big mistake on the part of the company and unfortunate. It'll cost us talent and wind up costing them a lot more than $6,000 per guy in the future.

Then again, maybe we can all calm down (myself included) and wait to hear what ACTUALLY happens from the new hire guys in class.....
Or perhaps rather than continuing to insult our hardworking MEC, who is not ALPA national, you could stop looking at this place through your Pinnacle lenses and realize that our MEC doesn't send out ANYTHING until they've triple fact-checked it.

Newhires have not been offered a PEA to sign since the vote passed. Fact, not rumor. You could also contact your LEC rep directly, as I have, and find out why you or I cannot file a grievance on behalf of the new-hires (that was about the first thing that came to mind when I read the email). It's getting harder and harder to stomach you guys that want to rationalize everything the company does with a "yeah, but....". Sometimes a turd is actually a turd. This is one of those cases.
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:05 AM
  #3826  
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Originally Posted by Kellwolf View Post
Sorry, I'm applying my past history with ALPA here. It's repeating itself. While we're on the subject of reading comprehension, lets look at the language of the PEA again, shall we?

The company cannot pay a new hire less than this. If you divide $2,500 by 30 (the per month thing) then multiply that by 41 (days in the training cycle), you get $3,417. This is about $100 than the "value" stated in the union e-mail. Without knowing what's included in the "value," we can't really know for sure. Also, I guess they still owe me $324.25 from new hire training as that's what I wound up being short of the "value." What we DO know is our new hires can't be paid LESS than $2,500 once they sign the PEA, which is normally in the first couple of days of class. Anything less than that is a violation of the PEA and the status quo. I'd hope our ALPA lawyers already have the grievance filed and ready to go on that one as that's pretty illegal for the company to do.

And yeah, I read the union e-mail several times because I couldn't believe what I was reading. Let's take a look again:



If this is true, it's a violation of the status quo and illegal. The company can't change an item in the PEA without union approval no more than Delta management could change something in a Delta pilot's contract without union approval, at least not without some serious legal ramifications. So they cannot "change how a new hire is compensated during initial training." It's in black and white in the PEA.

So, either the union is misunderstanding what the "value" or they're just letting the company get away with not honoring the PEA. Sets up a bad precedent and saying "Our ALPA legal counsel has made it clear that we cannot represent new hires until after they complete IOE per the RLA—a legal limitation we cannot change." is disappointing since it's in EVERYONE'S PEA. All we'd need is one guy not a new hire to fill out a grievance, and there ya go. If the company's actually not paying new hires $2,500 a month, I'd be happy to fill out a grievance on their behalf.

So, the facts as they stand are the company MUST pay new hires $2,500 cash per month unless for some reason they don't sign the PEA.

In my experience with ALPA, they're telling the whole truth about 85% of the time. The other 15% of the time it's either a spin, miscommunication or someone fired off a communication before checking their facts. I've never seen 100% of the truth all the time from ALPA. And, yes. I was a "yes" voter. Reluctantly, though. It's more of a "demon you know" type thing for me. People need to stop assuming that ALPA is telling 100% truth all the time just because it's in a union communication.

As for the loss of the $6,000 there's not much ALPA can do about that since it's not guaranteed in the PEA. IF it's true (and again based on experience an internet post that says "an ALPA rep told me" isn't the best source), it's a big mistake on the part of the company and unfortunate. It'll cost us talent and wind up costing them a lot more than $6,000 per guy in the future.

Then again, maybe we can all calm down (myself included) and wait to hear what ACTUALLY happens from the new hire guys in class.....
Proved wrong again Kellwolf. The only spin I've read so far are your posts on this board trying to spin how you're somehow right when you posted two completely false statements.
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Old 03-01-2015, 01:17 PM
  #3827  
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Originally Posted by rvr1800 View Post
Proved wrong again Kellwolf. The only spin I've read so far are your posts on this board trying to spin how you're somehow right when you posted two completely false statements.
Wasn't aware the new hires weren't offered PEAs. IMO that's a loophole that needs to be closed. However, I'm still not taking anything ALPA says at 100% the same way I'm not taking the company's line at 100%.

Everyone has an agenda, and it might not align 100% with your outlook 100% of the time. ALPA is ALPA, doesn't matter if it's a regional or a major. They have the same bylaws at both, follow the same rules and make the same moves. The only difference is the terms of the contracts they negotiate. So, in that regard, it's exactly the same at the regional level as it is at the major level. Those that think otherwise are likely in for a rude awakening down the road. The chance for abuse is equal as both.

Thanks for pointing out new hires don't sign PEAs anymore. Didn't know that one. But seeing as that wasn't included in the e-mail, I'm not sure how that affects my "reading comprehension" as everyone was so quick to jump on. Perhaps you fine people can educate me on exactly what the factors are that make up the "value" the union was talking about, as no one else seems to know. Also, I stand by my statement that perhaps ALPA shouldn't be attempting to rile up things until something has happened for sure. "Value" and "Pay" are different. If the new hires are still getting $2500 a month, what was the point of riling everyone up? I would certainly hope the "value" they're talking about (which in this case seems like "cost" would be a better word, but I guess the company thinks "value" sounds better) would decrease, otherwise there's REALLY no point in building the lodge.

I knew before I hit a keystroke I was gonna get piled on, insulted and basically screamed at. Speaking bad about the company is cool, but whatever you do, don't question the hard working MEC or ALPA in general. Let's all just shut up and color if the union says to, but don't believe a word the company says.
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Old 03-01-2015, 04:22 PM
  #3828  
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Originally Posted by Kellwolf View Post
Wasn't aware the new hires weren't offered PEAs. IMO that's a loophole that needs to be closed. However, I'm still not taking anything ALPA says at 100% the same way I'm not taking the company's line at 100%.

Everyone has an agenda, and it might not align 100% with your outlook 100% of the time. ALPA is ALPA, doesn't matter if it's a regional or a major. They have the same bylaws at both, follow the same rules and make the same moves. The only difference is the terms of the contracts they negotiate. So, in that regard, it's exactly the same at the regional level as it is at the major level. Those that think otherwise are likely in for a rude awakening down the road. The chance for abuse is equal as both.

Thanks for pointing out new hires don't sign PEAs anymore. Didn't know that one. But seeing as that wasn't included in the e-mail, I'm not sure how that affects my "reading comprehension" as everyone was so quick to jump on. Perhaps you fine people can educate me on exactly what the factors are that make up the "value" the union was talking about, as no one else seems to know. Also, I stand by my statement that perhaps ALPA shouldn't be attempting to rile up things until something has happened for sure. "Value" and "Pay" are different. If the new hires are still getting $2500 a month, what was the point of riling everyone up? I would certainly hope the "value" they're talking about (which in this case seems like "cost" would be a better word, but I guess the company thinks "value" sounds better) would decrease, otherwise there's REALLY no point in building the lodge.

I knew before I hit a keystroke I was gonna get piled on, insulted and basically screamed at. Speaking bad about the company is cool, but whatever you do, don't question the hard working MEC or ALPA in general. Let's all just shut up and color if the union says to, but don't believe a word the company says.
Ok, now I'm going to insult and scream at you. Seriously, arguing with you is like arguing with a 16-year-old girl, few facts and mostly emotion. The newhires are NOT getting 2500/ per month, and that's not rumor. The total amount divided by the training footprint equals approximately 2090/month, and the information was provided to the MEC directly from the company. (Guess you missed that line in the email). How in the hell does that equal our MEC having an "agenda" as you put it? It's sad to read that you seem to be ok with the company recouping the cost of this ridiculous lodge from our newhires.

Nowhere has the union told anyone to shut up and color, in fact, the only communication suggesting any specific actions that I'm aware of was from the BOS LEC reminding us of the parking brake SOP a couple months back. Nowhere in this thread has anyone suggested not believing a word the company says; perhaps you can find for us where the company has said one word about this directly to the pilot group?
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Old 03-01-2015, 04:25 PM
  #3829  
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Also, since you seem to think all of us posting our disgust about the change are less than trustworthy, perhaps you can post when you've reached out to your LEC rep, or the MEC, and what response you receive.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:20 PM
  #3830  
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You can take Kellwolf out of the regional but you can't get the regional out of Kellwolf.

There is just no hope for some people.
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