Details on Delta TA
#1231
All those words don't change the premise tsquare. The premise is measuring performance. You don't want us to have that capability, and neither does DALPA. If we're never shown the opener or survey results, we don't have a clue of admins effectiveness.
I think you meant despise, and no I don't despise DALPA. DALPA is my only choice, thus my only choice is trying to improve DALPA...not destroy it.
You too.
Carl
I think you meant despise, and no I don't despise DALPA. DALPA is my only choice, thus my only choice is trying to improve DALPA...not destroy it.
You too.
Carl
#1232
I have never heard of anyone with access to the raw survey data or "crunched data" either before or after a TA. We get a very, very general statement from the union that our top issues are, for example, increased pay, no change to vacation, improved retirement, hold the line other benefits, etc. We also are told what the general unratifiable items are such as NO PBS at FedEx. I think we put out the unratifiable positions more because it was a communication data point for the "benefit" of the company.
We have many seniority, union pilots who are in management so any communication the union puts out to the pilots is delivered to the company too. For that reason alone, I don't ever see detailed openers or survey data being provided because it would infringe on the ability of us to negotiate freely. A poker game where one side must expose their cards isn't much of a game.
We receive contract comparison information generally when there is a TA. We benchmark off UPS and the major passenger airlines. So, yes, we are rooting you on in your contract negotiations!
Our pay, at the moment, compares very favorably to everyone. And, since you mentioned the "legacy" contract items, this is a major area where I think we're ahead of most other airlines (or Air Lines as I'm on your thread) as I don't think we work as much as most other carriers, which is an improvement in our QOL. For example, because we line bid, a week of vacation can kill an entire month's work.
FedEx tossed out PBS about half-way though this negotiation process. As you may suspect, this is a contract killer for virtually everyone as it would affect many, many sections of the contract and FedEx isn't transparent with their scheduling process and most of us don't trust them with the keys to PBS. If they stick to that position, we will never have an agreed upon TA. I've heard they wanted to give a 20% first year increase in pay to get this which I estimate would provide them with 30% more efficiency. They could reduce the pilot force by at least 15% which would stagnate everyone. The ripples from PBS for us would be unimaginable so it's a TA killer for everyone.
We have many seniority, union pilots who are in management so any communication the union puts out to the pilots is delivered to the company too. For that reason alone, I don't ever see detailed openers or survey data being provided because it would infringe on the ability of us to negotiate freely. A poker game where one side must expose their cards isn't much of a game.
We receive contract comparison information generally when there is a TA. We benchmark off UPS and the major passenger airlines. So, yes, we are rooting you on in your contract negotiations!
Our pay, at the moment, compares very favorably to everyone. And, since you mentioned the "legacy" contract items, this is a major area where I think we're ahead of most other airlines (or Air Lines as I'm on your thread) as I don't think we work as much as most other carriers, which is an improvement in our QOL. For example, because we line bid, a week of vacation can kill an entire month's work.
FedEx tossed out PBS about half-way though this negotiation process. As you may suspect, this is a contract killer for virtually everyone as it would affect many, many sections of the contract and FedEx isn't transparent with their scheduling process and most of us don't trust them with the keys to PBS. If they stick to that position, we will never have an agreed upon TA. I've heard they wanted to give a 20% first year increase in pay to get this which I estimate would provide them with 30% more efficiency. They could reduce the pilot force by at least 15% which would stagnate everyone. The ripples from PBS for us would be unimaginable so it's a TA killer for everyone.
I wonder if we looked at another contract comparison provided by alpa to another alpa carrier if it would contain a different presentation of their same "statistics"? It always appears to me that the one we get is setting expectations and managing the vector.
Can you post a link to the comparison you received?
#1233
I think T said it best, do your due diligence on a TA and vote accordingly and accept the fact that majority rules and you might not be on that side of the fence. You also have to realize that most every voting pilot did their own due diligence and voted accordingly. The fact that they didn't vote the way you did doesn't make them any less than you or "sheep" or some other derogatory name.
Nobody is disputing majority rules. I'm just saying we deserve metrics by which we can determine the effectiveness of union leadership and its internal processes.
Carl
#1234
What am I missing?
#1235
But, I'm curious about this inability to view openers at Delta. At FedEx our contract openers are available for all the FedEx pilots to see. Since we are ALPA too, I don't think there is any policy against having contract opening positions published? After all, the company gets these openers so why shouldn't the pilots too? I don't understand why initial positions aren't available to the Delta pilots? Can anyone tell me why this is so?
Last time, our negotiating committee and MEC administrators behaved very badly and were removed from their positions as a result. But only after they did the damage of signing a TA with management that included an item specifically prohibited by the reps. Being able to know our own survey results or detailed contract opener would allow us to mitigate some of these shenanigans, but as you can see we have some people that strongly fight any release of a detailed opening position or survey results...even after it's over. There's two sides to their argument. You can't see this stuff during negotiations because it's like showing your hand in poker (or some similar metaphor). And you don't need to see it afterwards because it's over now and you only want it to bash the union anyway.
Bottom line, we don't get to see our survey results. Ever. We don't get to see our opening position of negotiations. Ever.
Carl
#1236
So that's how we get things ratified these days at Delta. It's one of the reasons half of Delta pilots signed a card at one time to remove ALPA and try a new union. Sadly, that effort is losing momentum now.
And, that's the crux of what I see in these Delta threads on APC: there at least two major "camps" or "parties" of pilots at Delta. Which is the larger "party" I don't know. And, I don't know if the Delta MEC leadership is a minority or majority "party" in power at the moment?
Carl
#1237
Line bidding. So one week of vacation can knock out two trips and pay a lot more than 42 hours. SWA has same thing and they use a program called swaptimizer to maximize their value for a week of vacation. So, if you thought our vacation sucked based on others having 6 hours, you should see what it is actually valued at if you bid your line and vacation properly. It is eye watering. Our vacation is a joke.
#1238
Line bidding. So one week of vacation can knock out two trips and pay a lot more than 42 hours. SWA has same thing and they use a program called swaptimizer to maximize their value for a week of vacation. So, if you thought our vacation sucked based on others having 6 hours, you should see what it is actually valued at if you bid your line and vacation properly. It is eye watering. Our vacation is a joke.
#1239
Now there's a lofty detailed goal that everyone can get behind!
Carl
#1240
I know you guys would just LOVE for me to drop it. And you can try to embarrass me or make fun of me for it, but I'm not going to let you shut me up. Yeah, it's a funny picture and it makes a funny point. But I think it speaks volumes about YOU that you want all this swept under the rug. Humor aside, that's your real message.
Such keyboard warriors these boys!
Carl
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