FNine

OK. I can't post on F9 pilot forum so I am posting it here. I know this might be common issue for many pilot groups but I am looking for F9 pilot opinions and input. Thanks

-----------------------
I guess it has been the increase of a continuos stream of insulting actions/emails and obvious contract violations that have driven me to write this. Long gone is the Frontier family. Now we are just another airline with abusive management saying that they care, but then continually ripping off the employees. Compliments followed by crap treatment and no respect for employees. Promises of improvement followed by worse treatment then ever. Fine...you want that kind of relationship then I guess you got it.

We all know bankruptcy is hard. Upper management screwed things up about as bad as they could and employees were told to sacrifice or loose their jobs. They sacrificed...big time.

One of the named causes for required concession was high oil prices. They were real quick to demand help when oil went up....just like they are real quick to give it back since oil is down....wait? What??

At least with low oil prices and profitability we will get our snap backs without fighting for it. What? They are not wanting to let us see the books to verify the % profit that triggers snap backs? That's weird.....

This company asked for massive concessions to save Frontier with promises of shared reward for the sacrifices. I guess the first warning sign should have been when the used to be pilot/union rep that sold the concessions never took a pay cut. In fact he never had to feel the pain of the concessions, that he said we had to live with, because his pay off for selling the pilots huge concessions was a massive raise for himself, with bonuses and stock options, and a made up management position. Then we instantly saw both his lack of regard for the pilot contract and pretty much zero willingness to stand up for what he knew were clear violations?? After helping write and enforce that same contract??? That is even more stunning. Wow.

But at least it will be shared reward! Right? Well, they, Idigo in cahoots with management, have stolen back a good chunk of it under the threat of not buying the airline. You can bet they will try to rip off the other part too. There is a saying that rules are made to be broken. Our owners/managers changed it to say promises are made to be broken. Their saying sure as hell isn't "A deals a deal."

Having the lowest compensated narrow body pilots isn't good enough. They also steal from the pilots. Pay errors are so common, and always in the company's favor, that it can not be innocent errors. It is being done with intent. The pilot payroll person is so bad I won't even comment further.

Now I f I went thru all of the contract violations and BS reinterpretations we have seen this would be a 97 page post. Suffice it to say they are crapping all over our contract.

But hey, flight crews are so respected that when you are required to go over to the G.O. for work then we will tow your car if you park in the large G.O lot... We have a dirt lot back away from the G.O. way back next to a hotel that you can use. Please bring mud boots if it is raining. Have I told the flight crews how much we appreciate you? As for G.O. parking spots.... They are for bean counters and cubical dwellers....oh....and the execs of course. Have you seen the size of some of the upper execs? Maybe they need to walk from the dirt lot once in a while. They are making you fill out invasive health assessments and forcing a Wellness program on you but they don't want to walk more the 20 feet to the front door. Makes sense.

If any of this makes you upset then please email us thru your company email account. Just do it in the next week because we are taking those away from you. Don't worry. We will still tell you what to think and do via Comply 365.....a one way communication tool. With the penny's we save on email for flight crew we can keep making up more VP positions for the entitlement inner circle at the G.O..

Part 117? Whatever..... Now if you go illegal we won't pay you.

Schedules? It is almost a competition to see how bad we can make them now. Rig? We can make that disappear. Then we will put you in a crap hotel with nothing around it for miles.... Enjoy!

Crew meals? Ovens? Hahaha......

After all of this we still want to thank you since, for some unknown reason, you keep helping us in every way. BTW, Great job improving the fuel burns and APU usage. Also, awesome on time performance too. You are great....really! Now we know we can keep crapping on you and you still do the best you can for us. Nice.

Well, we want to wish you a happy holiday season...oh, and we will be short staffed over the holidays, again, so could you be a team player and help us out on your days off? Why spend Christmas with your family, even tho your seniority allows it, when you can work? We know you will and we really appreciate it. Thanks! And if by chance you don't help as much as we want then we will just do another blue skies across the country irregular ops declaration. It worked last year.

Merry Christmas... and enjoy those nice 5 day trips with two redeyes, not even together, and sleep threw the middle of the day in a loud hotel with almost minimum required rest periods mixed with afternoon and morning flying. Remember...safety comes first.....barf...

Shrek

Talk to a Spirit pilot about how things go over there. They will be able to tell your future.

At Spirit's GO they CHARGE employees who use the electrical outlets to charge their phone.

IWalkJun12

*** did you think would happen when Bill Franke took over?

embraerjetpilot

Sorry to see that republic rubbed off on them.

gatorbird

Actually not anymore; that all went away with Indigo. In fact, things have improved dramatically since they sold out. Coincidence?

Aero1900

Oh boy...

First of all, as with any company working under a contract, it is important that the work group holds the company to the contract. We are no different at Frontier. FAPA needs to hold the company to it, and so do the pilots. I agree with the op 100%

However, I have a much different opinion on the way we are treated, and want to give my response to the whine fest.

I have never been 'abused' or 'ripped off by the company.' I have never been shorted in pay. The one time there was a mistake on my pay, it was fixed by the company without a fight. I simply sent an email and my pay credit was restored that day.

When Frontier went into bankruptcy in 2008, the company and the union signed a concessionary contract. That's just how it works. Happens at every single company that goes through a bankruptcy. We are no different. The union signed the contract with set snapbacks. We agreed to them, and signed off on them. We can't start complaining about it now. Yes, our pay is below average. That's just how it goes. Contracts are long term agreements. Things change, while the contract is in effect. We need to fight very hard on our next contract, but you can't say that the company is somehow ripping us off right now. Contracts is a contract. Get over it. Be gratefully they agreed to give us snapbacks at all. I don't know of any other airline that ever got snapbacks. When United when in the Chapter 11, they didn't get snapbacks. They just waited until they could negotiate a new contract.

As far as contract violations go, you have to remember that we were represented by the IBT for the last few years. FAPA has been working hard to fix issues and they are getting fixed. Things are being resolved. The loss of trip rig for pilot change to the a trip has been fixed, for example.

We dont stay in 'crap' hotels. Every hotel we stay in is nice. Yes, some of them are near the airport and there is not a whole lot around. Welcome to working for an airline. Get over it.

I really feel your pain in having to park across the street from the GO... what a horrible inconvenience that is... for the whole 2 days a year you will be there. I can't imagine letting the people that work at the GO 5 days a week park in the GO parking lot. I think they should have to park across the street while the pilots that are there 2 days a year get to park right out front. (hopefully that come across as sarcastic) I can't even believe you are complaining about the parking at the GO. Get over it. Its right across the street...


Frontier is a ULCC. We are not going to be compensated at the same rate as Delta which serves $5,000/ticket First Class passengers. But guess what? Delta pilots have to work on Chistmas, and they might even have to stay at a hotel that isn't right downtonw. In fact, I see Delta pilots at lots of our same hotels!!! Those poor Delta pilots.... slumming it with Frontier pilots at Crown Plazas and Marriots.

Lets be honest here, flying an Airbus is not exactly the hardest job in the world. Yes, I'll be flying on Christmas this year.. bummer. But I knew that was a possiblity when I took a job flying for an airline. I signed up for Frontier knowing damn well what the contract is like. We will get a better one someday, but for now, it is what it is. Frontier is still alive today, and hiring pilots and growing. The time will come to fight for a better contract, and I'll be right there fighting along side the rest of the pilots. But in the meantime I'll survive the 45 second walk from the parking lot to the GO and I'll survive my stay the the Crown Plaza hotel with all the other airline pilots from all the other airlines. Frontier has treated me very well. Never screwed me out of a penny. I'm happy to have the job.

And lastly, if you aren't willing to work on Christmas, you probably picked the wrong job. Last time I check, every airline in the world flies on Christmas.

Kiowa

FNine, I'm glad you started this thread. The internal FAPA board is great, but I think having this discussion publicly can yield better results.

Take the Allegiant thread for example. If their discussion was internal, I wouldn't know how badly they're treated, or what they're doing about it.

We need maximum light cast on this issue, we need outsiders to hear our plight. We need to keep the record strait for all to see. It will strengthen our position, and it will benefit the industry as a whole. Moral support from our colleagues outside of Frontier is crucial.

If you allow yourself to be mistreated then you are as unethical and as culpable as the perpetrator of the injustice. People exploit others because they are allowed to by their victims. We must be stand-up to it, and if we don't have the necessary courage, then let us at least have the integrity to place the blame equally on ourselves. Any illusion that the powers that be will do the "right" thing is pure stupidity. We'll only get what we deserve if we make them give it.

If you were caught stealing something from the company - you would be fired and excoriated for perpetrating an immoral and despicable act inconsistent with the company's standard of ethics. Yes, "ethics", a term that is used in one direction only. So why is it ok for them to steal from you? It isn't ok! But if you let them, you tacitly approve it.

We worked hard to become Major airline pilots. This career is either worth having or it isn't. Be courageous gents! The risk is negligible; we're only asking for what is fair and right, and we have the leverage to get it. Self respect deserves nothing less.

sulkair

Good

It's not all whining Aero, there are lots of legitimate concerns. But I'll agree with you that parking in dirt, losing ovens, or being kicked off company email, in the grand scheme, may not be truly egregious, but there is a perception of disrespect associated with them - and a perception that they could be harbingers of worse to come. Do you see what I mean?

Like you I have not been messed with either - however - our favorable personal experiences don't in anyway render other pilots' negative experiences and perspectives invalid. I have heard of numerous pay problems and contract violations and I'm not prepared to call these guys liars.

Snapbacks were negotiated to happen early with profitability. This is what guys are upset about. We're madly profitable now but FAPA is getting stonewalled wrt disclosure. Is that fair? Not a rhetorical question? Is this fair?

Good - I'll choose to stay positive on this.

Agreed 100%

I have to scold you on this one! Every time someone says something like this they diminish what we do and give our opponents (and we have many) ammunition to turn us, even more so, into glorified bus drivers. You're right your job isn't hard. You wanna know why??? Because you're a highly trained professional, and you're paid to make something intrinsically hard look easy. Are you telling me getting your private pilot wasn't hard? Instrument rating? Your first 121 training program? Check-rides? They've all been HARD for me! Don't sell yourself short Aero!!! You deserve to be well treated and well compensated just like we all do.

IWalkJun12

F9 guys/gals. Y'all better get your heads out of the sand and do a little research on Bill Franke. He will try to break you and if your not prepared he will wipe the floor with you. I lived it.

Barley

I don't care about dirt parking lots, not having email, ovens, or the other half mile long list of nonsense you're upset about. The brunt of your concerns have nothing to do with respect or care and everything to do with the fact you are unable to accept change. None of those things effect the quality of the workplace we are part of.

What I am concerned with is the fact this pilot group believes there is a difference between QOL and pay. This pilot group believes we have magical work rules that no other carrier comes close to touching. I'm certain Indigo wants you to believe that you hold any advantages in negotiations. The fact that most of the group's exposure to work rules and life were at Great Lakes or some fly-by-night Learjet operation prior to coming here leaves a great advantage to corporate. You simply don't know, but how could you?

All that sad, enjoy it. It's not going to get better. Deal with the change, enjoy the raises that will eventually come, but this is an airline. And if you look at the trend data nothing gets better. It's going to be one step forward and two steps back until the day technology eventually degrades or replaces your job entirely.

Happy holidays!