Jetblue begins negotiations
03-25-2015, 08:45 AM
#182
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by LoudFastRules
117 should have nothing to do with our work rules. Our work rules need to blow 117 out of the water, with exceptions for efficiencies which benefit the pilot group.
Agree about rest, except bare minimum 10:30 in the hotel room, no matter what. Nothing is worse than clocking in at the overnight, looking at FLiCA, and seeing that you are legal with 10:03 rest.
Agree about rest, except bare minimum 10:30 in the hotel room, no matter what. Nothing is worse than clocking in at the overnight, looking at FLiCA, and seeing that you are legal with 10:03 rest.
I know some pilots want more productivity
those should have the options to reduce to 10hr
but we should not be forced to minimum rest
Again it is all about the options
03-28-2015, 08:57 AM
#183
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 900
The reason a RSV day credits 4:12 is because 75 hours divided by 18 work days is 4.16, which rounds to 4.2 which is 4:12. Yeah, if we could negotiate 15 days off for reserves, that'd be sweet, and the math would work out to 5 hours a day for reserve. Negotiating a 5 hour pay for reserve and getting 15 days off as a result is doing it backwards. You go for the days off, and a reserve day "credits" whatever the min guarantee divided by the days worked is. The 4:12 "credit" normally only comes into play on hybrid lines or PTO situations. If I actually fly on a normal reserve line, I don't get paid OVER 75 hours because I flew more than 4:12 every day they used me. That DOES happen on a hybird, though, because the 4:12 credit is used to build the total credit amount of the line. Let's focus less on how much a reserve day "credits" outside of a hybrid line and more on just getting more base days off. I think every one of us would give up PRL days for a hard 15 days off a month. I know I would.
ASB, as has been said, is a slippery slope that has the potential for serious abuse without the proper contract language to go with it. Just ask the FAs. Personally, I'd rather not see it AT ALL. If they company wants to negotiate for it, we need to make it a VERY, VERY expensive negotiating item for them. Like 8-10 hours minimum above guarantee + per diem for each ASB assigned expensive. Imagine the abuse ASBs will get during IROPs as they try to recover. I could see them taking every SCR guy on the grid and making them ASB if they could. HCR, for me, is good enough. The provisions in the FSM make it fair, and I'd much rather be sitting in a hotel room they pay for rather than sitting at the airport, which can be even more fatiguing than anything. Nothing like getting that call RIGHT before your ASB shift is up to go do 6 hours of flying.
I don't THINK they use HCR much as it is because it has to be assigned ahead of time. The only time I've ever seen it was during a snow storm my first year in BOS. Give them ASB and the ability to escalate SCRs like they can the FAs, and we're setting ourselves up for abuse.
ASB, as has been said, is a slippery slope that has the potential for serious abuse without the proper contract language to go with it. Just ask the FAs. Personally, I'd rather not see it AT ALL. If they company wants to negotiate for it, we need to make it a VERY, VERY expensive negotiating item for them. Like 8-10 hours minimum above guarantee + per diem for each ASB assigned expensive. Imagine the abuse ASBs will get during IROPs as they try to recover. I could see them taking every SCR guy on the grid and making them ASB if they could. HCR, for me, is good enough. The provisions in the FSM make it fair, and I'd much rather be sitting in a hotel room they pay for rather than sitting at the airport, which can be even more fatiguing than anything. Nothing like getting that call RIGHT before your ASB shift is up to go do 6 hours of flying.
I don't THINK they use HCR much as it is because it has to be assigned ahead of time. The only time I've ever seen it was during a snow storm my first year in BOS. Give them ASB and the ability to escalate SCRs like they can the FAs, and we're setting ourselves up for abuse.
03-28-2015, 10:12 AM
#184
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 323
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
Was I technically at the point of fatigue? Not really - I was capable of doing the job - but awful tired. Plus, I was concerned they'd notice I didn't fly the first two reserve days (i.e. how can you be fatigued?). Got in at 15:50 duty in IFR conditions around midnight. Rough.
Fatigue is a personal thing...it happens. If you are;obviously you don't fly end of story.
Personal event for me...I once called in fatigued on a four day and never even flew...never got off the ground on day one. I was fatigued even though I was legal for duty another 5 hours.
I don't care what the clock or my scheduale says...Think of it always like that dispatcher telling you the weather is not that bad and "you will make it, call us when you land". Ya right! go get another Captain.
This may sound "preachy" I'm not intending to be just two cents and a personal event.
03-28-2015, 12:34 PM
#185
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,206
The problem with fatigue is that it's insidious, like being drunk. You are often incapable of assessing you own fatigue level in the moment. It's only after you fly that you look back and realize how fatigued you were. That's why I HATE the extension policy of 117. You aren't capable of making that assessment to agree to the extension.
03-31-2015, 04:50 AM
#186
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Posts: 1,602
IMO the worst scheduling combo for a reserve is a mid cycle shift from midnights to days or vice-versa. Trying to day sleep at a Crashpad - dubious at best.
03-31-2015, 05:12 AM
#187
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,795
Originally Posted by Southerner
The problem with fatigue is that it's insidious, like being drunk. You are often incapable of assessing you own fatigue level in the moment. It's only after you fly that you look back and realize how fatigued you were. That's why I HATE the extension policy of 117. You aren't capable of making that assessment to agree to the extension.
Yes this! There is a bit of an adrenaline rush leading up to departure. You're busy, doing flows, programming the FMS, running around. Plus nobody wants to inconvenience a plane load of paying passengers much less fellow crewmembers. It isn't until things start to slow down around 10,000 feet that you begin to realize that you were at least really tired if not fatigued.
Good thread on this topic on one of the other Forums. Surprisingly, most pilots there like 117 the way it is and say the pilots should have what it takes to throw the flag when they begin to feel fatigued.
03-31-2015, 06:05 AM
#188
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by Southerner
The problem with fatigue is that it's insidious, like being drunk. You are often incapable of assessing you own fatigue level in the moment. It's only after you fly that you look back and realize how fatigued you were. That's why I HATE the extension policy of 117. You aren't capable of making that assessment to agree to the extension.
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