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Old 05-22-2015, 10:17 AM
  #21  
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FWIW I graduated from UND-one of those schools that has an accredited ATC degree program. It was a well-known joke that people who went into ATC did so because they went into flight and got a DUI.

One can still be "qualified" and have a degree, but be a less desirable candidate. I'm not saying it's one thing or another, just slow ya' roll and wait to judge people until all the facts are in.
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Old 05-22-2015, 12:07 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
It might be once you get past the HR folks - but it doesn't matter who you know if you can't mark enough of the correct blocks to make it past the HR screening. At least this was my experience with gov't hiring practices.

You're right if the HR people don't like you will go nowhere. Sorry there's no fix for that problem.
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Old 05-22-2015, 12:48 PM
  #23  
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The BQ test sounds like BS. Gotta love that "how many sports did you play in high school?" question.
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Old 05-22-2015, 03:38 PM
  #24  
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I don't think it'll be a safety issue. Politicians have always decided who gets hired, but then there's who actually makes it through training and gets certified. Until they get certified, there's always someone babysitting them and fixing their mistakes. Plus the decision to certify someone is still made by front-line people with no interest in the latest diversity policy, and no interest in working with someone who can't actually handle the position.

So yea, we used to only hire assertive people who worked well under stress, but of course that discriminates against timid people who panic under stress, so we have to give them a shot now too. Doesn't mean they'll get signed off though, just quietly let go a couple years later when they officially fail the program.
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Old 05-22-2015, 03:53 PM
  #25  
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Data from the FAA indicates CTI graduates complete their FAA academy course work five weeks sooner than off the street hires. And, CTI advocates say CTI graduates are more likely to achieve certified professional controller (CPC) status which saves the FAA money since the CTI graduates complete the program at greater rate than applicants hired off the street.

FOX Business obtained a never made public FAA report that supports those claims. Studies of Next Generation Air Traffic Control Specialists II: Analysis of Facility Training Outcomes by Recruitment Source was written in October 2014 by Dana Broach, Ph.D. a researcher at the FAA’s Civil Aerospace Medical Institute in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. The report concludes, “Overall, larger proportions of…CTI hires achieved CPC (Certified Professional Controller) status than did general public hires.”


The FAA refused to let Broach talk to FOX Business
((filler))
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Old 05-22-2015, 06:12 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by SayAlt View Post
Data from the FAA indicates CTI graduates complete their FAA academy course work five weeks sooner than off the street hires.
That's a little deceptive, because CTI graduates are waived from the five week "Aviation 101" class at the academy normally given to off-the-street hires. So obviously they complete it five weeks sooner.

Those CTI college programs only teach about 200 hours of the 500 hours we get in classroom training, then after that is usually 1,500 hours or so of one-on-one training working live traffic. Meaning CTI grads don't come in any more prepared than the people off the street who sat through the 200-hour Aviation 101 class.

I'd guess if CTI students are more successful in the end, it's probably from a selection bias -- maybe only the more motivated, and more able, persist to take out college loans and devote their college major to "ATC."
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Old 05-22-2015, 06:16 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by ATCBob View Post
That's a little deceptive, because CTI graduates are waived from the five week "Aviation 101" class at the academy normally given to off-the-street hires. So obviously they complete it five weeks sooner.

Those CTI college programs only teach about 200 hours of the 500 hours we get in classroom training, then after that is usually 1,500 hours or so of one-on-one training working live traffic. Meaning CTI grads don't come in any more prepared than the people off the street who sat through the 200-hour Aviation 101 class.

I'd guess if CTI students are more successful in the end, it's probably from a selection bias -- maybe only the more motivated, and more able, persist to take out college loans and devote their college major to "ATC."

Hey. Are you guys still able to retire at 56 with a full pension?
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Old 05-22-2015, 07:39 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by ATCBob View Post
That's a little deceptive...

blah blah blah


That's nice, Bob. But that is a minor point in this whole thing. Btw, way to completely ignore this in your response...

Studies of Next Generation Air Traffic Control Specialists II: Analysis of Facility Training Outcomes by Recruitment Source was written in October 2014 by Dana Broach, Ph.D. a researcher at the FAA’s Civil Aerospace Medical Institute in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

But, since you seem to know so much about it all, would you care to comment on this...

the FAA threw out the AT-SAT scores and CTI qualifications of an estimated 3000 CTI COLLEGE graduates and military veterans who were all previously designated “well qualified” to become air traffic controllers. The FAA told them all to start over. But this time, when they applied for a job, their college degrees and previous military experience would mean nothing.
And this....

(After throwing out the successful CTI program...) The FAA’s new (lessor) requirements to apply are be a U.S. citizen, have a high school diploma, speak English and pass the FAA’s new BQ, Biographical Questionnaire
And this...

National Black Coalition of Federal Aviation Employees or NBCFAE. It’s one of several organizations which offer membership to people of color and minorities who work for the FAA.

Snow is an FAA employee and president of the NBCFAE’s Washington Suburban Chapter. He has recently been promoted to be an FAA Front Line Manager at the FAA’s New York Center.

Moranda Reilly says Snow sent her and other ATC applicants a recorded message on February 12, 2014 as they were preparing to take the Biographical Questionnaire test. Reilly shared the recording exclusively with FOX Business.

Snow Voice Text Message:

“I know each of you are eager very eager to apply for this job vacancy announcement and trust after tonight you will be able to do so….there is some valuable pieces of information that I have taken a screen shot of and I am going to send that to you via email. Trust and believe it will be something you will appreciate to the utmost. Keep in mind we are trying to maximize your opportunities…I am going to send it out to each of you and as you progress through the stages refer to those images so you will know which icons you should select…I am about 99 point 99 percent sure that it is exactly how you need to answer each question in order to get through the first phase.”
Shelton Snow - FAA employee and president of the NBCFAE’s
Washington Suburban Chapter

On his recorded message, Snow discusses the screen shots and icons applicants should select. Snow goes on to refer to “one of my HR representatives” and giving them “the opportunity to sign off on it before you actually click it.” The recording was sent to NBCFAE associate members when it became clear some of them were failing the BQ test.


Snow Voice Text Message:

“People have been getting rejection notices and those rejection notices have been coming after about 24 to 36 hours after clicking submit and I want to avoid that so what we are going to do is we are going to take our time and we’re going to make sure that everything we click on, and you going to even have to go back to your resume and make some changes because one of our members and I have caught something and we want to go back and want to fine tune those details…”

Snow refused to discuss the recording with FOX Business and has declined several requests for interviews telling FOX Business, “Journalists must stop contacting me.” When confronted on camera by FOX Business about the allegations of cheating and providing answers to the test, Snow declined to comment.

NBCFAE National President Paquita Bradley also declined repeated requests from FOX Business to discuss the recording and accusations that NBCFAE members helped applicants cheat.

And this...


Snow and other NBCFAE officials conducted workshops showing NBCFAE associate members, applying for FAA jobs, the correct answers to select on the BQ as well as key words to use on their resumes in order to be selected by FAA hiring personnel who were also NBCFAE members.

And this...

aviation lawyer Michael Pearson (is) a retired air traffic controller who now practices law in Phoenix, Arizona. “I believe the flying public has a right to know this is going on. I believe the people engaged in this behavior need to be held accountable,” he said.

Pearson represents Moranda Reilly and several CTI graduates who may sue the FAA if they can obtain class action status. As of now, they’ve filed an equal employment opportunity complaint with the FAA’s Equal Employment Opportunity office.

Pearson suspects something more egregious is taking place. “You had social engineering going on. It was driven by two arms of the FAA, two different organizations. One was a human resources group and I believe there was another group for different motives were engaging in what I believe is discrimination against qualified candidates,” he said. At the center of the accusations is the BQ which Pearson says is being misused to disqualify worthy job applicants like Moranda Reilly and Matthew Douglas.

And btw, this is just stupid...

Originally Posted by ATCBob View Post
CTI grads don't come in any more prepared than the people off the street who sat through the 200-hour Aviation 101 class.
So you're trying to make the claim that college graduates are not any more prepared that high school graduates.

That's laughable. And pathetic.

Last edited by SayAlt; 05-22-2015 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 05-22-2015, 11:32 PM
  #29  
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This whole thing is atrocious. Everybody wants true equal opportunity, but when United is forced to hire minority and female pilots at twice the percentage of qualified applicants, people get a little sensitive and touchy. This is that on crack. There should be no race/gender box on an application.
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Old 05-23-2015, 07:55 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by bozobigtop View Post
I am sure obtaining a government job is similar to getting a good job in America anywhere else, "its not what you know its who you know"
I have first hand experience with this one, and you are correct. It's also not only "who you know", but "what you are". That latter statement does not solely pertain to ethnicity, either.
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