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State Department comment period on Fair Skies

Old 08-14-2015, 02:48 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by MikeF16 View Post
I dislike the ME3 just as much if not more than the next guy and TBH I don't much like expats either. That said an expat and a scab are nowhere near the same thing. Not the same ballpark, not the same league, not the same sport.

I do agree that nearly all who can, do come crawling back at some point. Only those westerners with the most liberal of gag reflexes can manage to sustain a lifetime of living in the ME.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-oySY5uRt0
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeF16 View Post
I dislike the ME3 just as much if not more than the next guy and TBH I don't much like expats either. That said an expat and a scab are nowhere near the same thing. Not the same ballpark, not the same league, not the same sport.

I do agree that nearly all who can, do come crawling back at some point. Only those westerners with the most liberal of gag reflexes can manage to sustain a lifetime of living in the ME.
sorry I'm gonna have to disagree, they are willingly working for airlines who's goal it is to destroy the US3.
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Old 08-14-2015, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CanoePilot View Post
I've always thought the legacy unions should black list pilots who feel it's ok to run overseas and work for these anti-american/anti-capitalist airlines. To me a pilot who works for qatar, emirates or ethiad to get on a wide body the easy way are no different than a person who would cross a picket-line.

The funny thing is these people always beg to come back a couple years later. Maybe it's time to tell them they aren't welcome on our seniority lists or our jump seats.

So flying for QR, EK and EY are EASY ways to get to fly a widebody? Go through their hiring process and see if you can get hired...Highly doubt you'll pass....
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Old 08-14-2015, 04:59 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by CanoePilot View Post
I've always thought the legacy unions should black list pilots who feel it's ok to run overseas and work for these anti-american/anti-capitalist airlines. To me a pilot who works for qatar, emirates or ethiad to get on a wide body the easy way are no different than a person who would cross a picket-line.

The funny thing is these people always beg to come back a couple years later. Maybe it's time to tell them they aren't welcome on our seniority lists or our jump seats.
How can you say this????

I saw many back in the day that were furloughed because of XYZ going out of business but would DAL, UAL, AA, etc hired them? Not at all.

Would you expect them to wait on another regional making subpar wages with families to take care of and go bankrupt? I mention this, but the regionals weren't even hiring then.

The whole deal with what happens at Quantas is frightening to think of that happening here. We as pilots all prefer to be at DAL, UAL, and AA. None of us want to even be at the regionals or ME3, but they were the only ones hiring at the time we got a job.

I feel the regionals were one of, if not the biggest threat, to mainline jobs - that's knowing what I know now, but what I didn't know 10 years ago - they are a "c" scale pay flying mainline passengers. Unfortunately when I did get into this no major was hiring, but I'd much rather have started at a major.

If you were furloughed and no one, including regionals would hire you because no one is hiring what would you do?

Keep in mind the economy just burst, several airlines (ATA, Aloha, fuel at $140 a barrel) went out, and mergers announced and hiring stopped cold and no knowledge of when it was going to get better. This is what happened in 08 and stays that way till almost 2013.
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Old 08-14-2015, 11:35 PM
  #25  
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FWIW our family didn't come to the Middle East just to get into a wide body. We came because it was 2005 and we were desperate. Early 2001 I'd been hired at NWA and was waiting on a class date when 9/11 happened...never made it on property. I got on with ATA end of 2003 but was soon looking at an airline headed for Ch11 only this time I had two kids under the age of 2 years old and a mortgage to pay. I applied to carriers in the US and no-one was hiring. We couldn't afford another year on first year wages, or being without health care, so we came to the only company that was offering me a job and that was Emirates. We thought it would be an adventure for 3-5 years but then 65 years came along.

It's now been 10 years and we've been ready to leave for some time now - I'm actually concerned that PRIA is an issue for me getting a job in the US as I've been away so long. If it's any consolation to the pilots who don't want us expats back - not so many of us are getting the opportunity to return. There's the odd guy or gal getting an interview, but I can count on one hand the one's getting back who weren't already furloughed from UA or AA.

Just to add, I make sure to pay my taxes each year despite the fact my kids have never attended school in the US, and I defend the US on an almost daily basis against some of the nut-jobs I'm forced to work with (the pilot group is pretty good - it's mainly the f/a's I'm talking about). At this stage I don't expect to slide back into a job but it hasn't been an easy ride, or one made willingly. I'm ready to return home. The schedules here are grueling, I have no desire to do international and I'd quite happily sit narrow body doing domestic flying for the rest of my days, but now my kids are in middle school and I just can't risk going back to a regional. Anyway, I don't know if I'll change anyone's minds about us "traitorous expats" but I wanted to share my experience so you know how some of us ended up here.

As a side note, for all of us pilots currently here, we believe the glory days of Emirates are well and truly over. They've recently dropped their minimums to ICAO ATPL and English level 4 and above - that's it. I'd say about 70% of the pilot group here are looking to leave. Not sure who they will have left to fly all these widebodies...

Last edited by Buford; 08-14-2015 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:16 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot View Post
A group of US Airlines is teaming up against American, Delta, and United.

Business Insider
By Benjamin Zhang


The dispute between America's three largest domestic airlines — American, Delta, and United — and the Middle Eastern trio of Emirates, Etihad, and Qatar Airways just got more complicated.

A coalition of four US airlines— JetBlue, Hawaiian, Atlas, and FedEX — have spoken out against a request from the legacy carriers, which they refer as the "Big 3," to renegotiate America's respective Open Skies agrements with the UAE and Qatar.

The alliance — known as "US Airlines for Open Skies" (USAOS) — submitted a letter on Monday to the US Government detailing the harm that could be done to their respective businesses, consumers, and the US economy should the government comply with the wishes of the Big 3.

"The Big 3 do not speak for all, or even most, U.S. airlines," Hawaiian CEO and President Mark Dunkerley said in a statement.

"Our coalition believes that the United States should honor its Open Skies commitments, which opens markets for U.S. carriers, promotes competition on international and domestic routes, and facilitates U.S. exports."

In the letter, which was addressed to the secretaries of State, Commerce, and Transportation, USAOS stated its belief that any restrictions placed on the Open Skies agreements with the UAE and Qatar would constitute a violation of the agreement itself.

USAOS also point out that there could be political and national security consequences to restrictions placed Middle Eastern airlines.

"The unilateral actions demanded by the Big 3 likely would provoke retaliation by the UAE and Qatar, encourage other Open Skies partners to take restrictive actions, deter countries from entering into Open Skies agreements with the United States, and raise questions about the United States’ commitment to the Open Skies regime," USAOS wrote in the letter.

This is crucial for major cargo carriers such as FedEX and Atlas — both of which have significant operations in the Middle East.

FedEX currently operates a major sorting facility in the Dubai and 44 flights a week in and out of the emirate.

According to the coalition, both Atlas and FedEX operate support flights for US military operations in the Middle East.

While the large legacy carriers use their own interational flights to feed domestic routes, smaller airlines such as JetBlue and Hawaiian credit the growing presence of international airlines such as the Middle Eastern three with increasing traffic for their domestic services.

In fact, JetBlue believes the Big 3's goal is to roll back the clock on the airline business.

"JetBlue is not unfamiliar with efforts from the legacy carriers to stifle competition" JetBlue general counsel James Hnat said on a conference call with the media.

"Legacy carriers are trying to protect themselves ... Open Skies is good for trade, economic growth and politics."

Furthermore, USAOS claimed that increased competition in the airline industry through Open Skies agreements will "generate approximately $4 billion in annual savings for passengers on U.S.-international routes."

USAOS also dimissed United, American, and Delta's claims that 800 airline jobs will be lost for every route they lose to a Middle Eastern airline.

"The threat of job loss is just a distraction from the whole picture," Hnat said during the call. "There are other jobs to be created. It’s a just political distraction."

The Big 3 haven't taken today's announcement without comment. In a swift response, the Partnership for Fair and Open Skies — the lobbying group representing United, Delta, and American — didn't mince words about the formation of the USAOS.

"This is a meaningless coalition without a cause," Partnership for Fair and Open Skies spokesperson Jill Zuckman said in a statement to Business Insider. "The only risk to our Open Skies agreements is the Gulf carriers themselves and their massive, market-distorting government subsidies. Of the 117 Open Skies agreements with the United States, 115 are working beautifully."

Obviously, this is a dispute that's not going away anytime soon, and today's entry of a third party has added an extra wrinkle to the story. Stay tuned for more action.
Hey Fred, how about getting another "cargo cutout"? Those seem to be easy enough to buy.
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Old 08-24-2015, 01:13 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Buford View Post
FWIW our family didn't come to the Middle East just to get into a wide body. We came because it was 2005 and we were desperate. Early 2001 I'd been hired at NWA and was waiting on a class date when 9/11 happened...never made it on property. I got on with ATA end of 2003 but was soon looking at an airline headed for Ch11 only this time I had two kids under the age of 2 years old and a mortgage to pay. I applied to carriers in the US and no-one was hiring. We couldn't afford another year on first year wages, or being without health care, so we came to the only company that was offering me a job and that was Emirates. We thought it would be an adventure for 3-5 years but then 65 years came along.

It's now been 10 years and we've been ready to leave for some time now - I'm actually concerned that PRIA is an issue for me getting a job in the US as I've been away so long. If it's any consolation to the pilots who don't want us expats back - not so many of us are getting the opportunity to return. There's the odd guy or gal getting an interview, but I can count on one hand the one's getting back who weren't already furloughed from UA or AA.

Just to add, I make sure to pay my taxes each year despite the fact my kids have never attended school in the US, and I defend the US on an almost daily basis against some of the nut-jobs I'm forced to work with (the pilot group is pretty good - it's mainly the f/a's I'm talking about). At this stage I don't expect to slide back into a job but it hasn't been an easy ride, or one made willingly. I'm ready to return home. The schedules here are grueling, I have no desire to do international and I'd quite happily sit narrow body doing domestic flying for the rest of my days, but now my kids are in middle school and I just can't risk going back to a regional. Anyway, I don't know if I'll change anyone's minds about us "traitorous expats" but I wanted to share my experience so you know how some of us ended up here.

As a side note, for all of us pilots currently here, we believe the glory days of Emirates are well and truly over. They've recently dropped their minimums to ICAO ATPL and English level 4 and above - that's it. I'd say about 70% of the pilot group here are looking to leave. Not sure who they will have left to fly all these widebodies...
Thanks for posting that Buford, oh to walk a mile in another man's shoes... you sound like a good family guy not a traitor, best of luck to you and your family.
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:19 PM
  #28  
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Etihad Got $2.5 Billion Capital Injection from Abu Dhabi

Critics say state-owned carrier’s new funding violates air treaties with U.S. government
Etihad, and regional peers Emirates and Qatar Airways, have denied U.S. carriers’ claims they are subsidized. ENLARGE
Etihad, and regional peers Emirates and Qatar Airways, have denied U.S. carriers’ claims they are subsidized. PHOTO: KAMRAN JEBREILI/ASSOCIATED PRESS
By RORY JONES
Aug. 24, 2015 6:00 p.m. ET

The Abu Dhabi government last year injected $2.5 billion into Etihad Airways, new funding that critics say proves the Persian Gulf carrier is unfairly subsidized by the state in violation of air treaties with the U.S. government.

The previously-undisclosed cash injection is detailed in state-owned Etihad’s financial statements, which were made public on Monday by the Partnership for Open & Fair Skies, a lobby group led by the three biggest U.S. airlines.

RELATED

Emirates, Etihad and Qatar Make Their Move on the U.S. (Nov. 6, 2014)
Big U.S. Airlines Fault Persian Gulf Carriers (Feb. 5, 2015)
U.S. Airlines Battling Gulf Carriers Cite Others’ Experience (March 16, 2015)

The group, which includes several labor unions and U.S. carriers American Airlines Group Inc., United Continental Holdings Inc. and Delta Air Lines Inc., is pushing the U.S. government to limit the rapid growth of Etihad and its regional peers, Dubai’s Emirates Airline and Doha-based Qatar Airways.

Etihad reported a net profit of $73 million last year on revenues of $5.86 billion, according to the airline’s financial statements, which are audited by KPMG LLP. Earnings were boosted by a one-off sale of a subsidiary to another part of the group for $700 million.

“Etihad’s own financials prove that it is not a commercially viable enterprise and owes its continued existence to massive government subsidies from the United Arab Emirates,” said Jill Zuckman, chief spokesperson for the Partnership for Open & Fair Skies.

A spokesperson for Etihad said the airline had never hid receiving equity capital and loans from the Abu Dhabi government.

“That is completely normal for any business which has significant long-term capital commitments, for example for aircraft deposits,” the spokesperson said. “These issues have all been addressed in our submission to the U.S. government.”

The group submitted Etihad’s financial statements as part of its latest legal submission to the U.S. government as part of its effort to prove the Gulf carriers harm U.S. airlines’ operations.

Etihad’s documents were filed by the airline to a corporate registry in Hong Kong last month and were obtained and verified by The Wall Street Journal.

The big three U.S. passenger carriers in January asked the U.S. government to renegotiate air treaties with Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, where Emirates and Etihad are based.

They allege the three state-owned Gulf airlines have received more than $40 billion in government subsidies since 2004 that allow the carriers to unfairly compete in the aviation market.

The U.S. Transportation, State and Commerce departments said they would review the allegations and opened regulatory dockets where any party could file information and lobby for either side.

Emirates, Etihad and Qatar have dismissed the U.S. carriers’ claims, denied they are unfairly subsidized and filed rebuttals on the U.S. dockets.

FedEx Corp.’s FedEx Express delivery unit, Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings Inc., JetBlue Airways Corp. and Hawaiian Holdings Inc.’s Hawaiian Airlines have also said they oppose the big three U.S. carriers’ submissions to the U.S. government.

The Abu Dhabi government’s latest capital injection came as Etihad invested hundreds of millions of dollars investing in other carriers around the world, according to the airline’s financial statements.

It wasn’t immediately clear how the latest government funds were used, and Etihad declined to comment.

Etihad has minority equity stakes in eight airlines, and supports the carriers through investment in their loyalty programs, bonds and operations. It paid $543 million for a 49% stake in Italy’s Alitalia and bought perpetual bonds worth $399 million issued by Germany’s Air Berlin PLC. It also spent $150 million on a 50% interest in Jet Airways (India) Ltd.’s loyalty program.

The strategy has helped the airline, the smallest of the three Persian Gulf carriers, to achieve scale globally in markets where aviation rights are restricted or the carrier has faced fierce competition, particularly from its regional peers seeking to funnel traffic through their hubs.

The U.S. government has negotiated 117 “open skies” treaties with countries since 1992, allowing airlines from both sides to access any airport in both countries.

Write to Rory Jones at [email protected]
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Old 08-24-2015, 07:10 PM
  #29  
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It's also helping them poach pilots from struggling carriers like Alitalia.
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Old 08-29-2015, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by zippinbye View Post
I say this with no disrespect to my fellow pilots at the three U.S. carriers mentioned, because I assume it's your management that wants to bed down with the camel jockeys in the Gulf States; **** off Jet Blue, Fed Ex and Hawaiian! You really think state subsidized global domination is going to be good for our country and industry? Turban power not good!
I love how topics like this bring out the multitudes of casually racist morons that fill US flight decks.

Eligibility requirements: General.
To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:

(c) Be of good moral character;

Last edited by Barley; 08-29-2015 at 08:30 AM.
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