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American Merger?

Old 02-12-2008, 05:00 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Oldfreightdawg View Post
We keep hearing AMR/AS. However AS wants to remain independent and AMR would have to make a hostile take over attempt. Believe it or not, it's not something they want to engage in. As far as seniority integration, ALPA's merger policy is now law. APA thinks that it would go to arbitration and follow the template of the USAir--America West integration. In that case the arbitrator didn't "see" the USAir East furloughs, so they got stapled behind the most junior America West guy. If that's the case, you should have about 2000 guys behind you.

The other scenario is that will will try to play spoiler to a NWA--Delta deal, or at least try to make it a more expensive deal. And lastly, when the limits of foreign ownership are lifted, will we either merge with BA, or be bought outright by Emirates.

Of course, tomgoodman's scenario is also a good bet.
[B][I]Hello, as a 22 year US Airways fellow, I do not understand why you say that ALPA Merger Policy is now law. Actually, ALPA did not follow it's own merger policy, leading to turmoil within the groups here. Avoid a windfall to either group is one tenant of merger policy, and there are others in the merger policy that were not heeded in the lopsided Nicolau "Award". The result is that by end of March there will be a vote to replace ALPA with USAPA (like APA). If this happens, there is a 90% chance of vacating the Nicolau award, according to 4 independant labor attorney firms. US AIrways MDA pilots (same as TED or Song) were treated as furloughed. These pilots won a suit against ALPA. The mess only increases daily with ALPA doing damage control and the local CLT 90 council refuses to hold a meeting as there is a serious recall effort. Again, ALPA decides what is best for them, and does not care to hear dissident views. The seniority issue is far from over, whatever the outcome may be. Those not in ALPA, count your blessings. It is a major corporation run amuck and only interested in more income to support the 450k /year salaries and huge pensions. I can understand why ALPA is trying to hush this up. ALPA is also ignoring the facts of the bill signed by President Bush regarding mergers, which uses the Allegheny-Mowhawk provisions of seniority for airline mergers, unless both companies are represented by the same union. If you both have ALPA, good luck. ALPA does not heed it's own policies.

Last edited by flyharm; 02-12-2008 at 05:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:22 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by flyharm View Post
[B][I]Hello, as a 22 year US Airways fellow, I do not understand why you say that ALPA Merger Policy is now law. Actually, ALPA did not follow it's own merger policy, leading to turmoil within the groups here. Avoid a windfall to either group is one tenant of merger policy, and there are others in the merger policy that were not heeded in the lopsided Nicolau "Award". The result is that by end of March there will be a vote to replace ALPA with USAPA (like APA). If this happens, there is a 90% chance of vacating the Nicolau award, according to 4 independant labor attorney firms. US AIrways MDA pilots (same as TED or Song) were treated as furloughed. These pilots won a suit against ALPA. The mess only increases daily with ALPA doing damage control and the local CLT 90 council refuses to hold a meeting as there is a serious recall effort. Again, ALPA decides what is best for them, and does not care to hear dissident views. The seniority issue is far from over, whatever the outcome may be. Those not in ALPA, count your blessings. It is a major corporation run amuck and only interested in more income to support the 450k /year salaries and huge pensions. I can understand why ALPA is trying to hush this up. ALPA is also ignoring the facts of the bill signed by President Bush regarding mergers, which uses the Allegheny-Mowhawk provisions of seniority for airline mergers, unless both companies are represented by the same union. If you both have ALPA, good luck. ALPA does not heed it's own policies.
I probably take liberty with that statement more than I should because ALPA was behind supporting the legislation and APA was not (in fact APA didn't even know about it until it was signed into law). Over at APA, the feeling is that your particular situation may be repeated because it has set precedence among arbitrators. If it becomes unraveled, that may change.

I agree with your assessment of ALPA. The power brokers there only care about preserving ALPA the institution. Good Luck.
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:38 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by 7576FO View Post
Fli Fast you are such a LIAR.
Me 93' hire at AA, over 800 TWA's Captains senior to me flying captain.They were never furloughed. God knows how many junior to me flying captain at AA. Most TWA pilots hired after 1986 were ratio'd into AA seniority at 8 to 1.
I do not consider that a staple.

TWA crew Schedulers at AA, I know of several, never furloughed.
TWA dispatchers at AA never furloughed.

While even I don't agree with the way TWA pilots were merged, I have heard enough from you.

Now you hope that AA is bought and totally stapled to the bottom of someones seniority list.

FLI FAST IS A CRYBABY

I cannot listen to your constant crying on every thread that has nothing to do with TWA.

20 years of credit right now gets a left seat for any/all TWA pilots in St Louis.
What he said...
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:47 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by 7576FO View Post
Fli Fast you are such a LIAR.
Me 93' hire at AA, over 800 TWA's Captains senior to me flying captain..
Provide me with a list of the 800 Capts..a pm is fine. Please, prove me wrong.

I don't even think we have 800 redtails on property much less as Capts.

Please provide me with the list of the 800 Capts all senior to you..

If you furlough 1890 redtails, and 110 took the FERB (early buyout), that leaves approx 400 redtails that did not get furloughed.

And you talk about the Capt that was slotted in as a 1986 hire, guess what he was hired in 1961. How old were you in 1961 ?

Schedulers and Dispatchers weren't furloughed, they were told move to DFW or hit the street. I agree with you on that aspect...not sure where that came from it was never part of my response to OFD's constant contention that the AA/TWA was fair and just.

A buddy of mine in recall class, hired at TWA in 1989 is holding "Super" 80 First Officer. I know that is only 19 years of service, but it shows that your contention that 20 years of service holds a STL Capt position (as of today), is not a true statement.

Sorry, my friend.

FF

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited after checking aapilots.com 3XP

388 redtail Capts in STL. Not aware of any except in STL.
Lowest seniority number approx 8840.

7576,

As a 93 hire, are you going to tell me you are junior to sen # 8840. More than happy to cut-n-paste, what a 1993's sen # is...just let me know.

Just the facts, man..just the facts.

Last edited by FliFast; 02-12-2008 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by FliFast View Post
The only bright spot is that hopefully with the latest round of mergers, that American will no longer be the big fish and in time some one will buy American and staple their pilots to the bottom.
Sorry to burst your bubble, FF, but under the new legislation stapling is not considered an option...

Man, you are hard to figure out. I've had great conversations with you where we come to terms, and then you do an about-face and wish your worst on us. I do completely understand the source of your discontent, but to wish ill will on folks that had no say in the deal is pretty low. Oh well.

Cheers,
73
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:07 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by FliFast View Post
Provide me with a list of the 800 Capts..a pm is fine. Please, prove me wrong.

I don't even think we have 800 redtails on property much less as Capts.

Please provide me with the list of the 800 Capts all senior to you..

If you furlough 1890 redtails, and 110 took the FERB (early buyout), that leaves approx 400 redtails that did not get furloughed.

And you talk about the Capt that was slotted in as a 1986 hire, guess what he was hired in 1961. How old were you in 1961 ?

Schedulers and Dispatchers weren't furloughed, they were told move to DFW or hit the street. I agree with you on that aspect...not sure where that came from it was never part of my response to OFD's constant contention that the AA/TWA was fair and just.

A buddy of mine in recall class, hired at TWA in 1989 is holding "Super" 80 First Officer. I know that is only 19 years of service, but it shows that your contention that 20 years of service holds a STL Capt position (as of today), is not a true statement.

Sorry, my friend.

FF

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited after checking aapilots.com 3XP

388 redtail Capts in STL. Not aware of any except in STL.
Lowest seniority number approx 8840.

7576,

As a 93 hire, are you going to tell me you are junior to sen # 8840. More than happy to cut-n-paste, what a 1993's sen # is...just let me know.

Just the facts, man..just the facts.
Fact
In 2001 Approx 835 TWA CA's came onto our list senior to me. In 2008 there are almost 400 TWA CA's in St Louis.
1988 or 1989 hire date gets a CA seat in St louis. I do not have a problem with that in any way. A guy with 20 years deserves it.
Fact
If your friend hired in 1989 is sen # 8840 and he was a CA at TWA he is only temporarily a FO and will get his seat soon in St Louis.
Fact
So in 2001 approx 835 TWA CA's went ahead of me on AA seniority list. After that they are ratio'd in at 1 to 8 down the list until a certain point where I think the last 1,000 were stapled.
Fact
I didn;'t mention anything about "slotted in as a 86' hire" when he was hired in 1961?
Fact
I will say it again 1988-1989 TWA gets a CA seat in St Louis.
My Opinion
I'll say it again, the TWA pilots were not treated fairly. I would hate to be based in St louis.
My Opinion
I do not buy TWA as a total Staple job.
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:09 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by aa73 View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble, FF, but under the new legislation stapling is not considered an option...

Man, you are hard to figure out. I've had great conversations with you where we come to terms, and then you do an about-face and wish your worst on us. I do completely understand the source of your discontent, but to wish ill will on folks that had no say in the deal is pretty low. Oh well.

Cheers,
73

FliFast,

I agree with 73, what happened? You are almost always above the fray? The above post does not sound like you, maybe somebody posted under your username.

Like a couple others on here said, when you wish that much ill will, it shows a lot of hatred, not just at APA, but at each individual pilot over here.


Wishing you well,

AAflyer
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:11 AM
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Back to the original post...American won't merge with anyone...in this country. I think AMR will hope everybody else merges and than they can run to Congress and cry about how big everyone else has become and that they need to loosen foreign ownership rules or AA will disappear.

British Air has want to merge/buy AA for the longest time.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by fartsarefunny View Post
Back to the original post...American won't merge with anyone...in this country. I think AMR will hope everybody else merges and than they can run to Congress and cry about how big everyone else has become and that they need to loosen foreign ownership rules or AA will disappear.

British Air has want to merge/buy AA for the longest time.
I mostly agree. On the other hand a AMR - ALK merger would put AMR in a close third place behind DAL-NWA. In fact on a ASM and RPM basis a AMR-ALK combo would be almost the same size carrier as a DAL-NWA combo, assuming no overlaps.
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:52 AM
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Gentlemen and my fellow co-workers at AA,

You may have been surprised when I said if AA misses the megamergers that they may in fact be a target of mergers down the road. This is an opinion.

When OFD, touted that the legislation only serves to double staple the TWA pilots this is more fact than fiction, but inflamtory nonetheless. We don't need to be reminded that were are at the bottom of the AA seniority list, we live it every day.

My comment back to him hoping AA gets stapled was admitedly, just as inflamatory, but it is my opinion that if AA misses the megamergers and gets bought years down the road, what is to stop the acquiring carrier from doing to you all what you did to us ?

In this case, yes, the TWA pilots will go further down the list, but just consider this for a second...all the years of service that you invested..all the birthdays you missed, weddings, anniversaries, holidays, all the rainy nights in flea-bag hotels, all the dues you paid were now made worthless by the acquiring carrier...you gotta agree that you would be fit to be tied.

As far as 7576's comment that there are 800 TWA capt senior to that are flying. Yes, I agree with you that back in 2001 when we operated as TWA LLC you are correct there probably were 800 TWA capts senior to you, and that had ZERO effect on your schedule...we were two diff. airlines. There are probably 1800 Capts at Southwest senior to you, but again that has no effect on you at all. Humbly, that is an inaccurate flame-bait statement.

The 3XP proves only 388 redtails are Capts as of 1/31/2008. To say to us that they will get their seat back soon is nice and friendly, but until it is painted up on the ramp and we are flying it, those statements mean nothing.

I do not know of any 1989 hires in STL that are in the left seat as of today. If you have a name, please just copy his/her initials and the month they were hired.

I'm sorry that you are upset that in 2001 our 1988/89 hires were Capts, but Holy Sweet Moses in a pair of tights, we were two different airlines and they were hired before you, what did you expect ???

Of the 388 redtail Capts, how many on the combined list are senior to you, I can look it up but we both know it is a number between 100-150, and these were guys hired at Ozark in the 70's back when you and I were in elementary school and a handful of 1985 and 1986 hires. In 1985 I went to my Senior Prom, dontcha think that you can live with somebody that was hired almost 10 years before you that you will allow them to be a Capt ? Or no ?

I always welcome you, my fellow co-workers to post about TWA, but keep it factual and if you want to post something inflamatory or inaccurate, it will be taken to task. I expect nothing less of you when postings are made about AA or the APA.

So what's for dinner, guys,

FF
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