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-   -   Merged CAL/UAL seniority lists (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mergers-acquisitions/4713-merged-cal-ual-seniority-lists.html)

HSLD 07-02-2006 08:40 AM

Merged CAL/UAL seniority lists
 
For information only, here is a merged seniority list for a Date of Hire integration of the UAL and CAL lists. This is for information only, please read the disclaimer on the file download.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/o...Itemid,85.html

We're looking for the AMR, NWA, and DAL Lists, please PM me if you'd like to submit your seniority list. All lists are de-identified [before being published here] with names and employee numbers removed.

A320fumes 07-02-2006 09:21 AM

Thanks
 
Thanks for the work. No way! "Career expectation" is way too disparate between the 2 groups to think DOH will work. As a former AAA guy, I know this from the AWA merger.
I flew 4 legs to get home yesterday and heard from a lot of po'd passengers. This stands to be the worst Summer ever for the American flying public. I expect the congressional airline hearings from '01 to continue before the "platinum parachute merger machine" runs smoothly again.... I hope. We owe the pax better than this.

HSLD 07-02-2006 09:49 AM

I coudn't agree more, like I said it's for info only and I hope it never happens as those two groups would both lose IMO.

fecav8r 07-02-2006 05:37 PM


Originally Posted by HSLD
For information only, here is a merged seniority list for a Date of Hire integration of the UAL and CAL lists. This is for information only, please read the disclaimer on the file download.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/o...Itemid,85.html

We're looking for the AMR, NWA, and DAL Lists, please PM me if you'd like to submit your seniority list. All lists are de-identified [before being published here] with names and employee numbers removed.



Did I miss something? Is this a real possibility?

Ottopilot 07-02-2006 06:26 PM

A merger will not be a simple DOH mix of pilots. There are protections in an ALPA merger. For example: a UAL pilot that is furloughed could be 10 years senior to a CAL pilot that is not furloughed. The CAL pilot would not lose his job or be furloughed. He is protected. You'll have to dig into the ALPA merger stuff. Bring your lawyer to help you interpret it.

HSLD 07-02-2006 06:31 PM


Originally Posted by fecav8r
Did I miss something? Is this a real possibility?

I don't think you missed anything - although I guess anything is possible. I'm not aware of any plans for UAUA or CAL to merge with any other carrier(s). This merged list was produced for info only based on some interest from another pilot, I wouldn't read anything into it. As mentioned, mergers rarely go by straight DOH.

This is simply an exercise in age and DOH distribution at each airline.

B757200ER 07-02-2006 07:50 PM


Originally Posted by Ottopilot
A merger will not be a simple DOH mix of pilots. There are protections in an ALPA merger. For example: a UAL pilot that is furloughed could be 10 years senior to a CAL pilot that is not furloughed. The CAL pilot would not lose his job or be furloughed. He is protected. You'll have to dig into the ALPA merger stuff. Bring your lawyer to help you interpret it.

That is pure speculation on your part. Noone knows what would happen if UAL/CAL decided to merge.

As for ALPA, don't count on them for any legal, financial or political support whatsoever. You and your pilot group will be on your own, trust me. I have first-hand experience with that.

RedeyeAV8r 07-02-2006 08:05 PM


Originally Posted by B757200ER
As for ALPA, don't count on them for any legal, financial or political support whatsoever. You and your pilot group will be on your own, trust me. I have first-hand experience with that.

Correct........ALPA National will not take sides in a Merger between 2 ALPA represented Pilot groups that are merging....It would be a Conflict of Interest.....Just look at USAir (AAA) and former AmericaWest. It is and will be between the 2 merging MECs and the Arbitrator.

The Furloughed USAir Pilots with Dates of Hire back to 1987....(in my opinion)will not be Senior to an America WEST Capt with a 1989 Date of hire.

Almost all ALPA to ALPA mergers go to a nuetral Arbitrators.......Both sides present their cases to the Arbitrator and make their arguments and present their merger formulas. The Nuetral Arbitrator makes a binding decision on how the merger integration goes...............it becomes LAW.
Then both former groups sit in the cockpits of merged airframes and argue/B*tch for the rest of their careers on how they each got Scr**ed by the other side. Often there are some pretty hard feelings that only go away with retirement. Been down that road.....................

If a NON-ALPA carrier merges with a ALPA represented carrier, then ALPA National will provide all the Legal assistance needed.

TWA and AMR is one example where that did not really happen. There are many stories as to why. I do not know myself as I was not involved. I was told it was due to the fact that with TWA in Bankruptcy, the TWA Pilots had to make a choice. Take their chances with the company's survival on it's own..........or take a agree to void their contracts SCOPE/Successorship clause and take their chances with APA doing a fair integration.
Fair is in the eyes of the beholder. I have no dog in that fight, but Almost all of the Former TWA pilots are furloughed or close to it.

767pirate 07-02-2006 11:57 PM

U never know. U can get scr@@wed. It just takes a case of wine or more. Thank u Mr. Kellar

Daytripper 07-03-2006 07:29 AM


It just takes a case of wine
Is that wine....or whine? :D

B757200ER 07-03-2006 07:47 AM


Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
ALPA National will not take sides in a Merger between 2 ALPA represented Pilot groups that are merging....It would be a Conflict of Interest.....Just look at USAir (AAA) and former AmericaWest. It is and will be between the 2 merging MECs and the Arbitrator.

Almost all ALPA to ALPA mergers go to a nuetral Arbitrators.......Both sides present their cases to the Arbitrator and make their arguments and present their merger formulas. The Nuetral Arbitrator makes a binding decision on how the merger integration goes...............it becomes LAW.

If a NON-ALPA carrier merges with a ALPA represented carrier, then ALPA National will provide all the Legal assistance needed.

TWA and AMR is one example where that did not really happen. There are many stories as to why. I do not know myself as I was not involved. I was told it was due to the fact that with TWA in Bankruptcy, the TWA Pilots had to make a choice. Take their chances with the company's survival on it's own..........or take a agree to void their contracts SCOPE/Successorship clause and take their chances with APA doing a fair integration.
Fair is in the eyes of the beholder. I have no dog in that fight, but Almost all of the Former TWA pilots are furloughed or close to it.

That situation is what I was referring to. TWA was a founding member carrier of ALPA, yet ALPA's President and BOD decided to completely abandon their pilot group of 2400 and instead attempt to get APA (AA) to merge with ALPA and bring in 11,000 more dues-paying members.

This was my point: Don't count on ALPA to help. If it's in their best interest to do otherwise, they will not be there, even if a non-ALPA carrier merges with a large ALPA carrier.

Not only would Duane Woerth sell his own Mother to cut a deal, he'd send her COD.

And yes, out of 2400 TWA pilots, only 495 are left at AA.

www.twapaf.com
www.twapilots-vs-alpa.com

X Rated 07-06-2006 02:03 PM


Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r


If a NON-ALPA carrier merges with a ALPA represented carrier, then ALPA National will provide all the Legal assistance needed.

TWA and AMR is one example where that did not really happen. There are many stories as to why. I do not know myself as I was not involved. I was told it was due to the fact that with TWA in Bankruptcy, the TWA Pilots had to make a choice. Take their chances with the company's survival on it's own..........or take a agree to void their contracts SCOPE/Successorship clause and take their chances with APA doing a fair integration.
Fair is in the eyes of the beholder. I have no dog in that fight, but Almost all of the Former TWA pilots are furloughed or close to it.

Well, that's somewhat of a stretch. ALPA National barely provided ANY legal assistance to the TWA pilots. If anything, ALPA did what they could to HINDER the TWA pilots so that they could appease the APA--a group that they had been courting quite seriously.

The TWA pilots had the proverbial "gun to the head" as AMR asked, YES, ASKED, TWA to file bankrtupcy. (source: AMR 10K report, April, 2001

The accusations can be found at http://www.twapilots-vs-alpa.com.

X Rated

RedeyeAV8r 07-06-2006 02:37 PM


Originally Posted by X Rated
Well, that's somewhat of a stretch. ALPA National barely provided ANY legal assistance to the TWA pilots. If anything, ALPA did what they could to HINDER the TWA pilots so that they could appease the APA--a group that they had been courting quite seriously.
The
X Rated

Re Re-read my post...........I said it ALPA national will normally provide legal assistance between an NON ALPA carrier and an ALPA one........... but with the TWA-AAL it did not because of the following.............

I was told that ALPA did not have a legal leg to Stand on during the merger.
Because the TWA MEC agreed to Vois the Merger/ Successorship clause in the TWA Pilot contract as part of the Merger deal. I was told that voiding that section was a AAL demand before the Merger deal would proceed..........

This is why the TWA pilots were unfortunately stapled to the bottom.
I do not know this to be fact. This is what was told to me by an ALPA attorney.

If you were former TWA.......Please confirm this one way or another? Is that True or Not?

X Rated 07-06-2006 04:18 PM


Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
Re Re-read my post...........I said it ALPA national will normally provide legal assistance between an NON ALPA carrier and an ALPA one........... but with the TWA-AAL it did not because of the following.............

I was told that ALPA did not have a legal leg to Stand on during the merger.
Because the TWA MEC agreed to Vois the Merger/ Successorship clause in the TWA Pilot contract as part of the Merger deal. I was told that voiding that section was a AAL demand before the Merger deal would proceed..........

This is why the TWA pilots were unfortunately stapled to the bottom.
I do not know this to be fact. This is what was told to me by an ALPA attorney.

If you were former TWA.......Please confirm this one way or another? Is that True or Not?


Yes, I am former TWA.

ALPA National's lawyers advised the TWA MEC to void the Merger/Successorship! You should have seen the fist pounding by one of these lawyers at one of the late MEC meetings where the "shiite sandwich" was crammed down! ALPA insisted the TWA pilots sign it. We didn't. Only later was it discovered about other activities that ALPA (and it's law firm) were involved in.

This was misinformation and railroading by ALPA at it's best.

So tell me why a FRAGMENT of USAir was going to be (or at least ALPA Nat'l was negotiating for) integrated date of hire with American when the original four-way (AMR/TWA, UAL/AAA) merger was announced?

X Rated

tomcat1956 05-04-2010 05:11 AM

unable to pull up merged list
 
your link does not work i'm doing something wrong?. also he date of hire at pesent time Cal has a more senior work force due to all the hiring they did in 83,84,85,86,87,88 Ual did very little hiring during that time frame started to pick up hiring late 85 , heavy in 86.

War Eagle 83 05-04-2010 05:38 AM

I can't wait to see this abortion of a "list" by ALPO!!!!! Also, how are you UAL guys and gals gonna like flying with all the CO scabs???? :D This is just too funny!!! have fun at Continited, or is it Unitenental. OK. Fire away!!!!!

JetFlyer06 05-04-2010 05:51 AM

I agree, link does not work. Where is the list?

gettinbumped 05-04-2010 06:20 AM

Holy thread resurrection! Don't even bother. DOH will not even be considered.

Fritzthepilot 05-04-2010 06:21 AM


Originally Posted by War Eagle 83 (Post 805987)
I can't wait to see this abortion of a "list" by ALPO!!!!! Also, how are you UAL guys and gals gonna like flying with all the CO scabs???? :D This is just too funny!!! have fun at Continited, or is it Unitenental. OK. Fire away!!!!!

Nope. No firing away here. I feel sorry for you guys at USAir. You have created such a mess that it appears there is no way out for you. To our benefit at UAL/CAL, we have witnessed your current scorched earth policy. UAL witnessed your DOH demands during our proposed 2000 merger.

Our SLI won't be easy, but it will be done. Then we are going to work together and get the contract we deserve.

Regarding the SCABS, is that all you can come up with to stir the pot?

Rocketiii 05-04-2010 06:36 AM


Originally Posted by War Eagle 83 (Post 805987)
I can't wait to see this abortion of a "list" by ALPO!!!!! Also, how are you UAL guys and gals gonna like flying with all the CO scabs???? :D This is just too funny!!! have fun at Continited, or is it Unitenental. OK. Fire away!!!!!


You guys are more self-absorbed than I thought. Wow. You are right- we will follow your plan. That worked out great.

EWRflyr 05-04-2010 06:37 AM

The original post is from FOUR (4) YEARS AGO! It wouldn't even be close to relevant or accurate today.

Nothing to see here...move along.

astrojet 05-04-2010 07:00 AM

it was a while ago ...but I believe TWA was in chapter 11....then they declared chapter 7....so in theory AA purchased assets of the liquidated airline...this was never an actual merger....that is why the twa pilots were stapled to aa list. did twa actualy HAVE to declare chapter 7?? ...is the fishy part.

shiznit 05-04-2010 07:16 AM


Originally Posted by War Eagle 83 (Post 805987)
I can't wait to see this abortion of a "list" by ALPO!!!!! Also, how are you UAL guys and gals gonna like flying with all the CO scabs???? :D This is just too funny!!! have fun at Continited, or is it Unitenental. OK. Fire away!!!!!


What an embarrassing thing to say.

If you want to make comments like that, you should change your user name so as not to give the impression that you represent the Auburn Family in any way, shape, or form. Here's a little reminder about how true Auburn people act:

THE AUBURN CREED

I believe that this is a practical world and that I can count only on what I earn. Therefore, I believe in work, hard work.

I believe in education, which gives me the knowledge to work wisely and trains my mind and my hands to work skillfully.

I believe in honesty and truthfulness, without which I cannot win the respect and confidence of my fellow men.

I believe in a sound mind, in a sound body and a spirit that is not afraid, and in clean sports that develop these qualities.

I believe in obedience to law because it protects the rights of all.

I believe in the human touch, which cultivates sympathy with my fellow men and mutual helpfulness and brings happiness for all.

I believe in my Country, because it is a land of freedom and because it is my own home, and that I can best serve that country by "doing justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly with my God."

And because Auburn men and women believe in these things, I believe in Auburn and love it.

-George Petrie (1945)

SoCalGuy 05-04-2010 07:38 AM


Originally Posted by HSLD (Post 44713)
For information only, here is a merged seniority list for a Date of Hire integration of the UAL and CAL lists. This is for information only, please read the disclaimer on the file download.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/o...Itemid,85.html

We're looking for the AMR, NWA, and DAL Lists, please PM me if you'd like to submit your seniority list. All lists are de-identified [before being published here] with names and employee numbers removed.

HSLD....care to publish the Relative Senority Lists between CAL & UAL????

If you 'don't' have it, I'll be glad to supply to you. Have 2 list's based on R.S.- furloughs included....as well as the Active Pilots only.....and YES, all names/emply #'s removed for you in advance to protect I.D.

PM me and I'll send it your way so we can weigh both for 'all' to view. I'm sure you would be 'open' to showing 'all options'?? You know....."Fair & Unbias" ;)

Ottopilot 05-04-2010 07:57 AM


Originally Posted by War Eagle 83 (Post 805987)
I can't wait to see this abortion of a "list" by ALPO!!!!! Also, how are you UAL guys and gals gonna like flying with all the CO scabs???? :D This is just too funny!!! have fun at Continited, or is it Unitenental. OK. Fire away!!!!!

I sure the UAL guys will enjoy flying with the CAL scabs as much as we CAL pilots will enjoy flying with the UAL scabs.

If I had my way, we lose all the scabs on both sides and bring back all the furloughed guys!

Fritzthepilot 05-04-2010 08:28 AM


Originally Posted by SoCalGuy (Post 806038)
HSLD....care to publish the Relative Senority Lists between CAL & UAL????

If you 'don't' have it, I'll be glad to supply to you. Have 2 list's based on R.S.- furloughs included....as well as the Active Pilots only.....and YES, all names/emply #'s removed for you in advance to protect I.D.

PM me and I'll send it your way so we can weigh both for 'all' to view. I'm sure you would be 'open' to showing 'all options'?? You know....."Fair & Unbias" ;)

Socal,

We all need to keep in mind that when these lists are published, and they will, no one really expects a straight date of hire integration. On the other hand, I would be very surprised if there was a straight relative seniority integration as well. The final list when produced, I am quite confident, will surprise most.

There's a thread going on within the UAL forum talking about how we need to set a high standard and treat each group with respect and let our respective merger committees do the work. In the end we will be flying together and we have a large contract in front of us.

With that being said, publish the lists and break out the olives and martinis.

newKnow 05-04-2010 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by SoCalGuy (Post 806038)
HSLD....care to publish the Relative Senority Lists between CAL & UAL????

If you 'don't' have it, I'll be glad to supply to you. Have 2 list's based on R.S.- furloughs included....as well as the Active Pilots only.....and YES, all names/emply #'s removed for you in advance to protect I.D.

PM me and I'll send it your way so we can weigh both for 'all' to view. I'm sure you would be 'open' to showing 'all options'?? You know....."Fair & Unbias" ;)


SoCAl,

Check your PM, please. :)

SoCalGuy 05-04-2010 08:58 AM


Originally Posted by Fritzthepilot (Post 806065)
Socal,

We all need to keep in mind that when these lists are published, and they will, no one really expects a straight date of hire integration. On the other hand, I would be very surprised if there was a straight relative seniority integration as well. The final list when produced, I am quite confident, will surprise most.

There's a thread going on within the UAL forum talking about how we need to set a high standard and treat each group with respect and let our respective merger committees do the work. In the end we will be flying together and we have a large contract in front of us.

With that being said, publish the lists and break out the olives and martinis.

Fritz....

I hear what your saying & could not agree with you more. "Tongue and Cheek", I may have come across as "snide", not meant as such.

As you pointed out, DOH vs Straight Relative Seniority, both are at the far ends of each spectrum in this SLI.....Strictly one, or the other, would present a Windfall for one group in this integration. I think we (as MANY others) can agree, a one-sided Windfall would be unfair/unbalanced.....not something we want to embark on in a constructive integration.

The point I was trying to make (and be it valid), if someone (who is a CO-Founder and UAL Pilot) wants to present a DOH list (which if solely used would be considered a Windfall as we mentioned above), what's wrong with someone else 'suggesting' that he also offer the other side of the coin in weighing in on what a Relative Seniority List would look like as well?? IF there are options/ideas to put on the table to view it from all prospective's, why not welcome it?? Again, that's all I was pointing out. If that's perceived as being out of line, I would have to disagree.

I whole-heartedly agree with you on the what a great opportunity we have in coming to together and making the NEW UAL one of the worlds most formidable carrier's. In doing so, we will have to rub elbows/constructively share ideas on how we can fairly integrate into ONE VOICE via an amicable SLI. This will be the ONLY way we can make a unified stance in 'negotiating' with mgt in obtaining the BEST CBA possible, not only UAL Pilots, but also holding the company's feet the fire on SCOPE & JV Flying as it pertains to industry wide.

In the end, I apologize for any 'wrong tone' that I may have presented to you, HSLD, or any other reader. Just a valid point/suggestion in my eyes, thus the post.

southbound 05-04-2010 09:04 AM

I agree with most of what you say but have a hard time understanding how straight relative senority with fences is somehow on one end of the 'windfall' spectrum. Seems pretty middle of the road to me.

Fritzthepilot 05-04-2010 09:14 AM

Socal,

I did not mean to suggest you were displaying a wrong tone. Far from it. I was more or less speaking through you to everyone else. Once people see a list of any sort, many will tend to, for lack of a better term, "keyboard quarterback."

Lists are just that. There are many variables that eventually lead to our integration. Take care and see you around the school yard.

aa73 05-04-2010 09:22 AM


Originally Posted by astrojet (Post 806017)
it was a while ago ...but I believe TWA was in chapter 11....then they declared chapter 7....so in theory AA purchased assets of the liquidated airline...this was never an actual merger....that is why the twa pilots were stapled to aa list. did twa actualy HAVE to declare chapter 7?? ...is the fishy part.

Not quite.

TWA was not in Ch 11 before purchase took place. AA required TWA to file for Ch 11 as a condition of the purchase.

Regarding the integration/staple, APA molded it exactly the way an arbitrator would have - to withstand the eventual lawsuit, which it did. Fair, depends on who you ask. I'd say the majority of TWA pilots got hosed - but it was expected, much like the way anyone getting purchased by SWA will also get hosed seniority-wise.

cactusdog16 05-04-2010 11:39 AM


Originally Posted by southbound (Post 806083)
I agree with most of what you say but have a hard time understanding how straight relative senority with fences is somehow on one end of the 'windfall' spectrum. Seems pretty middle of the road to me.

The main reason for relative seniority being on one side of the windfall spectrum is the preponderance of widebodies at UAL and career expectations. Roughly 58% of UAL's fleet are widebodies (if you include the 757 in that mix as it is flown as the same fleet as the 767), while only 31% of CAL's current fleet is widebody (again, including their 757s). A pilot who is halfway up UAL's seniority list is much closer to a more lucrative widebody position than a pilot who is half way up CAL's seniority list. If you merge simply by relative seniority, all CAL pilots are much closer to the higher paying equipment, while all UAL pilots are further away than they were pre-merger, or even bumped off. Simply stated, UAL is bringing mostly widebodies to the merger, while CAL is bringing mostly narrowbodies.

Even fences will not fix this problem as most of us who are under 60 are in this for the long haul. No one is going to put up a 25-year fence.

Strict date-of-hire would not be fair either, as UAL's most junior active pilot (after the Tilton furlough) is several years senior to the most junior CAL Captain.

As many have already said, it will not be strict DOH or strict relative seniority, but some conglomeration of both along with several other factors.

Fishfreighter 05-04-2010 12:14 PM

Given the ALPA merger/frag policy and the fact that Bond/McCaskill requires it to be the rule book for ALPA/ALPA mergers, DoH won't even be considered.

Captain Bligh 05-04-2010 12:36 PM


Originally Posted by Fritzthepilot (Post 806065)
Socal,

We all need to keep in mind that when these lists are published, and they will, no one really expects a straight date of hire integration. On the other hand, I would be very surprised if there was a straight relative seniority integration as well.

Not to mention the fact that if you do get a copy of SoCal's relative list, the first thing you may notice is that there are CAL pilots on the list that were born in 1938, a few in 1942... I doubt that the list holds any more credibility than the straight DOH list.

yamahas3 05-04-2010 12:48 PM


Originally Posted by cactusdog16 (Post 806143)
Roughly 58% of UAL's fleet are widebodies

This is only true because most of UAL's narrowbody fleet is outsourced.

They gave up scope so bad that it caused furloughs of over 1000 and now they're the one with the premium fleet?

alfaromeo 05-04-2010 01:09 PM


Originally Posted by Fishfreighter (Post 806166)
Given the ALPA merger/frag policy and the fact that Bond/McCaskill requires it to be the rule book for ALPA/ALPA mergers, DoH won't even be considered.

ALPA Merger Policy was changed last year. There are three factors to consider in building the list. This is not a priority list (the first one listed isn't necessarily the most important) and there is no weight given to any factor. They are:

1. Status and category
2. Longevity
3. Career expectations

So longevity, or date of hire, is a consideration.

80ktsClamp 05-04-2010 01:19 PM


Originally Posted by yamahas3 (Post 806185)
This is only true because most of UAL's narrowbody fleet is outsourced.

They gave up scope so bad that it caused furloughs of over 1000 and now they're the one with the premium fleet?


This is going to be a major issue with the SLI. With furloughs back to 1999 and guys at CAL hired in 2006 and 7 holding widebodies (not sure what a stovepipe works out to), I'm glad I'm watching this from the outside.

Captain Bligh 05-04-2010 01:19 PM

more succinctly:

Merger Information

cactusdog16 05-04-2010 01:24 PM


Originally Posted by yamahas3 (Post 806185)
This is only true because most of UAL's narrowbody fleet is outsourced.

They gave up scope so bad that it caused furloughs of over 1000 and now they're the one with the premium fleet?

Just stating the facts on the current fleet makeup at UAL and CAL mainline. 58% vs 31% widebodies. I guess that would make UAL "the one with the premium fleet." Personally, I would much rather that the 100 guppies and 1400+ furloughees were still on the property at UAL.

cactusdog16 05-04-2010 01:39 PM


Originally Posted by yamahas3 (Post 806185)
This is only true because most of UAL's narrowbody fleet is outsourced.

They gave up scope so bad that it caused furloughs of over 1000 and now they're the one with the premium fleet?

And if you don't like the way that loss of scope and parking of guppies skews the percentages, you could always look at total number of widebodies at each airline: UAL 210, CAL 108

Either way, the career expectations of UAL and CAL pilots differ because of this, regardless of past issues with scope, furloughs, etc. A straight relative seniority integration would be no less of a windfall for the CAL pilots than a straight DOH integration would be for those at UAL.


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