rickair7777

I know several backseaters who work for regional airlines...and have not been able to make the jump to the majors.

Basically a backseater is on the civilian-track as far as an airline career.

There are a few potential benefits...

- It might be fun.

- Military pay is good, so that and maybe the GI Bill can pay for your civilian ratings.

- You can work on civilian ratings at or near most duty stations, except for the real hardships tours (sandbox). If you STAY SINGLE and devote your free time you could get all your ratings and then work as a CFI before your AD obligation expires.

- You will get to know some pilots who will likely end up in the airlines and can provide you with a recomendation. This is especially true for guard/reserve.

- You might be able to upgrade to pilot. Most services have allowed this at one time or another.

- After you leave AD and start the airline career, the guard/reserve can provide supplemental income and a fall-back position.

SGRogue

I started off as a Nav in the AF. The only thing it did was give me a decent pay check to help pay for my civilian flying. I was lucky enough to get picked up for UPT 3 years following UNT graduation. The only way you could get from AF Nav to Pilot earlier was if you were bumping up against the age restriction. By the time I finished my UPT commitment, I had 13 years of AD (1 for UNT, 3 for Nav, 1 for UPT, & 8 for pilot) and I stayed around for the 20, eventually getting to the airlines. As was said earlier, Nav to UPT is doable, but limited. The biggest thing is that you have to push everything thru on your own.

On a different note, I know an AF Reserve Nav that did the civilian route while staying in the reserves as a Nav. Worked real well for pay, etc. until he was furloughed from American. He was deployed and then had to turn to the AF for a paycheck since he had been out of the cockpit as a pilot for so long. Bottom line is he has virtually no pilot time since furlough (therefor can't apply anywhere) and is now dependent on going back to American.

SunSherpa

As a former C-141 Nav who is now a pilot in the Guard, I can tell you that if you're up against an age limit to go to UPT (as I was) then take the Nav/CSO slot. You'll have a greater opportunity to get picked up for a pilot slot later on down the road than if you waited around with the hope of getting pilot slot that would require an age waiver.

I have no regrets for my time as a Nav as I had a chance to see the world, establish some incredible friendships and fly some really cool missions. Airland, Airdrop, Low-Level, SKE, Multi-ship Formation, Air Evac, Polar/Grid Navigation (to the Southpole) Aerial Refueling; you name it, the C-141 did it. Would I have wanted to be a pilot sooner...of course. But I immersed myself into my job as a Nav, knowing that if I were off by just a mile as I made that run to to the dropzone with a bunch of Army Rangers in the back, they would wind up drowning in a lake instead of landing at the DZ on time on target. I wasn't thinking about the airlines, just happy to be a part of a crew that was passionate about flying...pilot, copilot, navigator, flight engineer and loadmaster all working towards a common goal..flying a safe and successful mission. It sure has heck beat sitting at a desk looking out the window and watching planes take off from the flightline and wondering what could have been.

Pilot slots are competitive even when you've got time on your side...if you go past the cutoff and hoping for a waiver it's not impossible (but then ask yourself why would a unit want to sponsor you if they've got equally qualified candidates who don't require waivers). The debate about the merits of being a pilot vs nav are as old as the beginnings of multi-crew cockpits. But know this; you will acquire some great situational awareness and airmanship as a nav, you'll make the same amount of money as the pilots, sit up front and have the best view around, provide a much-needed skill to Uncle Sam as an aviator, and hopefully have some fun while at it. There are other avenues to the airlines and if you meet the mins in the future to get picked up at a regional, your resume WILL stand out as a Nav if you're competing against pilots with the same amount of pilot time as you.

Good luck!

GunshipGuy

As a former B-52 Radar Nav I can say that I felt I had a bit of a jump on my UPT classmates, but that didn't last long. An F-15E WSO would have a huge advantage in UPT. As a former nav and more senior officer you get points for being the class leader, which helps in your class ranking. Used to be the prior navs would all find themselves in the top third of the class. Don't know how it's been since 16 years ago. I got all my air sickness out of the way (9 hrs at time in the hole will do that to you), and I felt I had better air sense and SA in my first month of flying than I otherwise would have had.

Used to be a wing would get 3 navs picked up every board, then it went down to barely any slots for navs. It's eventually picked back up; the navs I know who are sharp and have a good rep are selected. We've had some who weren't even out of their MDS training and were told they were going to UPT.

Good points made in earlier posts...specifically the money to get some ratings. As for how it would go for someone who went in as a nav and then got a UPT slot? Well, I think you'd be looking at 20 years on AD unless you palace chase (if they brought that back). Think: NAV school, UPT, 10 year ADSC....so at least 12 - 13 years in before you could go airlines (if that's your eventual goal). Like the majority of AF pilots I know today, most are staying in for the security of a retirement check and healthcare. Then they'll consider the majors. That's how it worked for me and I have no regrets. Well, I do have one: If I hadn't gotten picked up for UPT I would have wondered why I wasn't thinking about the Guard/Reserve at the same time in case my active duty UPT plan didn't work out.

USMCFLYR

We have a former USMC F/A-18D WSO going through training in my squadron at the present time. Obviously he excels at some flights (like the high altitude bombing flight using the RDR and FLIR for target acquisition); I haven't flown with him yet but I'm sure that he has a leg up on most/if not all of the first time students through the program at least in the SA and systems orientented portions of flight. Only time will tell if his WSO days will help with his stick and rudders skills of BFM and carrier qualification to come.

USMCFLYR

Tweetdrvr

Being a Nav will most likely help your SA and airmanship as the others have said. It may not be a skill that is directly transferable on a resume or that can be quantitatively measured but it is there. I was a B-52 EWO from the SUNT days at Mather so I only did basic DR and Radar Nav then sat backward in the dark for two years with RWR gear and jammers. I went to UPT with that experience and my private. I had pretty good SA all through Tweets, but hated formation. I felt behind the 38 all the way until graduation. 15E WSOs usually do very well at UPT because of their constant exposure to the tactical environment, and I don’t recall any of them not getting T-38s at track select or not getting a -15C/E, -16, or A-10 at assignment night . Guys who come in with CFIs and possibly Regional Jobs from the ANG/Reserve as well as Nav wings do quite well also. Every now and then we get Navs who struggle. I know of a 130 Nav from about 9 years ago who got an FEB after graduating UPT and could not complete 130 training at Little Rock and this was after being a 2000 hour 130 Nav.

I went on active duty with a nav slot then found my self pilot qual on my last physical. The ROTC det said there was nothing they could do for me and to go be a good officer and nav and that I should get my shot. During the Reagan buildup before the budget cuts and peace dividend, about 80 navs a year were getting to UPT. Following Desert Storm, the first selection board that I would have been eligible for only took 10 navs. I had already lucked into a slot with my hometown ANG unit.

Unless you can find a reserve component UPT slot before you are too far down the road to being an AD officer, I would say go to Nav trng, and fight to be the best and get the F-15E back-seat, 2nd choice B-1, 3rd choice probably C-130s, and go EWO only if it gives you the chance to get the 15E or the B-1.

Thanks to the pilot shortage (self created by paying guys to get out, plus the buildup to MC-12 Liberty and UAVs) several Navs are getting the shot at UPT these days. It seems like an average of 1.0 per class right now at our base, and we run 15 classes per year. If you do the math on that counting the 3 AF bases, excluding ENJJPT, and counting P-cola, it works out to conservative estimate of @ 50 per year. It seems like Navs are getting selected for UPT about 2 years out of Nav school and getting their pilot wings about 4 yrs after finishing Nav training. Service commitments get superseded they don't add up. So if you get to UPT, you are committed to about the 15 year point.

If you don't get to UPT for the active duty, here is a way to move your dream forward.

Between deployments and on leave, fly all you can. Get your CFI, II, and MEI so that you stop renting planes (If it flies, [fornicates], or floats, it is cheaper to rent). It is better when people pay you to fly.

Try to make your second assignment someplace with good flying weather and a strong civilian market, so that you can build hours and if you are really good, make it close to several ANG/Reserve units that you would like to visit for post AF employment. Nav school teaching jobs at P-cola should give you lots of free time while minimizing deployments.

Try to Palace Chase or get out at end of your Nav commitment and go to the ANG/AFRES as a Nav. Try to get a UPT slot from the ANG/Reserve if you still meet the age requirements. If you don't get a UPT slot, the $$ you earn as guard bum/reserve trougher will continue to support your flying habit. C-130 units are your best bet for continued employment as a nav. Most ANG units fly the newer H models and will likely require navs for at least 10+ more yrs depending on the C-130 AMP really getting of the ground. If you are over the age limit when getting out and still want a shot a being a military pilot, when shopping for 130 units, look for units with the older 1978-86 model 130s and keep your ear to wall about potential upgrades to the so called "X model or AMP" or converting to the J-model. These units that go thru this conversion should get age waivers to send Navs to UPT up to age 36. I have seen guys make Major at UPT and one guy going back to pin on Lt Col after graduation at their ANG units. One guy showed up that graduated Nav school from Mather after I did Yes, they will take a 15E/B-1 WSO to a 130 reserve sqdn.

Go to someplace to teach like AllATPs who feed ab inito candidates private to ATP to the regionals to hopefully get a shoe in the door with the regionals while trying for UPT with the reserve component. You might get lucky and go to UPT as a regional pilot and go back to your employer after two years of mil leave at a much higher seniority number and be an AF pilot to boot.

I missed the hiring market of the late 90s for lack of PIC time. I thought being a mil pilot was enough. Thanks to a backlog of pilots at my ANG unit, the upgrade line was a little slow. If I had it to do over, I would have gotten my CFI ASAP after UPT and gone to one of the regional feeder flight schools to teach and maybe would have been an RJ Captain in time to get hired and furloughed prior to 9/11. Thanks to 9/11 and the resultant turmoil on the industry, I did not get hired by an airline until 2004, and that was at a regional before I got my current gig. I know 2 Navs who got out when I did in 92 and did not go to UPT, one got hired by ComAir in 97 after doing quit a bit of CFI work, one was a Chief CFI at a part 61 FBO/School, went on to do various other things to include on demand 135 Charter and contract freight work, but they all still have jobs at big companies today and are not in any danger of furlough unless something else bad happens to the economy. The ComAir guy left them and is now a Captain at a Fractional and doing quite well, the other is a Captain at my current employer about 8 years ahead of me on the seniority list. They still fly as Navs for the guard because of the camaraderie and to keep their mil pensions alive and to have second income potential for strike/furlough insurance.

Good Luck, hope this helps you.

flybynuts

Another point to ponder is, will you be content as a nav forever? If not, then don't do it becuase this is what you are signing the bottom line as. My best friend did this in 1994 as a senior in college. He never got to make it over to the pilot side due to 9/11 and deployments. He hates the nav job and does other non-flying jobs to avoid the community. he is sticking in for the pension and then bolting. As for transitioning to pilot, the fat budget days are falling fast in the military and there will be less of everything to go around. I anticipate your chances to transition will only get harder. I see the big budget briefs on the Navy/Marine Corps side in flight school and we are cutting a lot. Good luck to you and your decision.

SunSherpa

Unless you have a realistic prospect of going to UPT then you probably don't want to wait too long before making a decision to become a rated aviator. Like UPT, there is an age cut-off as well for UNT. I can't speak for the previous posters best friend who hated being a nav, but I suspect some of that was as a result of frustration from not being picked up as a pilot and not necessarily because the nav community was intolerable and the navigator career field unfulfilling.

Having seen both sides of the career field as a nav and pilot, I can say the actual mechanics of manipulating the flight controls is somewhat over-rated (especially on those oceanic crossings when we were all huddled around the laptop watching the movie of the night..you couldn't tell who was the pilot or the nav) unless you're in the takeoff and landing phases of flight. You are no less valuable a crewmember (whether you serve as a pilot or nav) and like everything else in life; you get out of it what you put into it. The alternative is not flying at all...in which case you have to honestly ask yourself if a successful military flying career can only be defined if you're occupying the L/R seat. I suspect their are aviators from the first B-17 crews to Air Force One (which does have a nav) who would say otherwise...

flybynuts

Sunsherpa,

Good point. He was on AWACS and felt that the community was dying and he wanted to be a pilot. He went to the JSTARS and still didn't like the job. He wanted to fly.

You are no less valuable a crewmember (whether you serve as a pilot or nav) and like everything else in life; you get out of it what you put into it. The alternative is not flying at all...in which case you have to honestly ask yourself if a successful military flying career can only be defined if you're occupying the L/R seat. I suspect their are aviators from the first B-17 crews to Air Force One (which does have a nav) who would say otherwise...

Concur...I had many a crew cheif in the back of the helo that made pilots look weak compared to what they had to do.

SGRogue

The other thing to remember is that some aircraft are more nav critical than others. As such they are often more appreciated and rewarding. On MC-130E's we had 2 navs and an EWO; they were a huge part of the mission success! The same can be said about almost all other C-130s. I am sure the F-15E WSOs are equally appreciated for getting "on target, on time". Former C-130 Nav friends that flew AWACS & JSTARS all reported a "lack of challenging a mission".