block30

When you say "it" or "this abortion" which aircraft are you referring to?

Cubdriver

What prompted this statement started with the fact that an all-hands company meeting was called in summer 2010 where Bill Boisture went on at length about how HBC is in the red because Embraer is killing them on labor costs. Many of the Embraer airplanes are more cheaply made, not less quality just cost, and it is a fact that HBC literally almost pulled up the entire plant from Wichita in 2010 to find cheaper labor. In addition, they recently laid off hundreds of engineers and workers. I recall having worked there morale was always lousy and people were bailing left and right for other firms. The very guy that hired me at HBC quit a week after I got there to name one. Also, my current boss is an HBC defector and he was head of flight test. I do not have any numbers handy, just anecdotes but I'll flat out state that I think the company is on a downward spiral. I would be curious how many of the ISR King Airs they are selling. Of course there are some civvy sales like you say, but not a ton.

Cubdriver

I would urge you to be skeptical of any aircraft company performance outlook statement based purely on back orders. It is a nearly meaningless number. There are a number of ways the back order log can be bolstered to look like something strong, when it is actually meaningless. It has no real merit until the cash is paid and the airplane is delivered. People always get so impressed by back orders. Cessna had billions of dollars in back orders in 2008 and by mid 2009 sales were so poor the company was forced to lay off half its work force, and almost went under.

bunk22

I only know what I'm told and from my understanding, from a friend who worked on this program, the A-29 was the better aircraft. No details as to why though.

satpak77

Interesting. It is amazing how FSI at ICT is always singing how busy Beech is, Beech this, Beech that etc Kool Aid stuff.

Me also wonders how many, really now, ISR King Airs do we really need, in light of UAV's, and other solutions.

The King Air used market, I don't see many mid-2000's and newer models for sale. So that segment must be doing pretty good, or at least nothing is for sale. Read that how you want to I suppose.

I wonder how TBM and Pilatus are affecting HBC. Why spend 6M on a new 350 when I can spend 4M on a 2007 model and get the same thing. I mean, come on.

bcaviator

HBC delivered something around 300 aircraft in 2011. I'd say that's more than a "downward spiral". Also, a phenom 100 was leased to compare quality to the Premier and there is no comparison. The Premier won hands down. (this was not a media ploy, no statements were ever released about it).
In response to the MC-12, according to military releases it was the most flown airframe in Afghanistan, being a much more economical platform for ISR.

Cubdriver

Surely you do not think it is much more than one. There's isn't much lower to go than almost bankrupt.

Flying- Troubling Developments at Hawker Beechcraft

I would like to see a source on that. They would have to have ignored Premier's tendency for runway over-runs for one thing, plus totally missed the steep cost of manufacturing which was a point I made earlier.
I don't care how many they are selling, it does not change the near bankrupt status of the firm which is the central point I made. I never said HBC airplanes were not competitive airplanes in terms of quality, just that they do not appear to be as viable in the current world market. For the sake of American jobs I hope HBC survives. But things are currently pretty dismal there now, and denial of this fact does not help.

There is an old saying- recognizing your problem often supplies half of its solution.

BDGERJMN

This program should have been left with SOCOM where it belongs and call it a day. The abortion was tieing Service dollars to the acquisition and FMS/politicians getting their mitts into the process. End rant...

dbtownley

As my old boss would say..."This is a big chocolate mess..."

bcaviator

I guess I don't see how a past "tendency for overruns" affects a quality comparison.