limelight

The "Other but A-Code" is the biggest thorn in my side right now. I don' t know how to approach it. Southwest specifically says that they don't count other towards anything and I'll have enough that it won't matter.

Here's the problem. If I'm the A-code but not in the seat, I WILL get Q-3'd if anything happens. On the civilian side, when the Captain of a 777 goes to take a nap over the ocean, is he logging time? He signed for the jet and is responsible for it.

LowSlowT2

What on earth possesses your unit to do this? (or is it a MAJCOM, MDS, or community?) The only time I've seen this done is if the "standing A code" is an IP - then he's logging IP time, not other time. In my former MAJCOM, the IP only had to be in the seat if the guy was non-current for takeoff or landing. I know what you're doing is technically legal per 11-401, but why not J-code (or whatever your unit uses for "in command, alternate mission") the guy in the seat?

I'd refuse to give up the seat if they forced me to log 'other' time - 'other' time is little more than self-loading baggage at that point...

Not knowing the precise scenario, I can't offer any other solutions.

propfails2FX

Great question. As an aircraft commander I was woken up twice during crew rest in the back of a P-3 for emergencies.

So on a 9 hour flight with three pilots, 6 hours pilot time (3 hours first pilot time, 3 hours copilot time) 3 special crew time, 9 hours aircraft commander time, should I only log 6 hours PIC on my application? What do airline captains log on a flight with three pilots? Does time in the rack count towards PIC time? It seems that it would, but I don't want to screw this up on an application.

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

RogAir

1. Count OTHER time when calculating your PIC time! The airlines intent in PIC time is "How many hours do you have as the A code" i.e. signed for the jet. So in command on a 9 hour flight with 3 pilots you would have 3hrs PRI, 3 hrs SEC, 3hrs OTHER, and 9 hours PIC (not recorded by the military). If someone asks how you can log PIC from the bunk, you ask "who is the PIC right now?" and they would say "One of the Copilots in the seat" and you would say, "Well if that is true, then I will take 3 hrs PIC from a 9 hr trip I did 4 years ago when I was the coplilot, and we'll call it a wash...."

AND...do you really think the excuse "I was in the bunk at the time" will relieve you of any fault finding in the military?

If you want to be conservative don't count OTHER time in your overall flying totals, but do count it towards your PIC time.

Tanker-driver

What's the standard in the Herk community? If you're augmented do you still log primary if you're out of the seat? It amazes me how much difference there is between communities when it comes to logging time. I've heard wildly different "techniques" for logging primary instrument and IP time as well. You'd think that at least the heavy communities would be somewhat standardized here.

LowSlowT2

First, we don't fly a lot of augmented missions. Even though my MDS is AR capable (err...was - I just retired Thursday), our missions are so short-notice that we have difficulty getting tankers. What we end up doing more often than not is not augmenting our crews, but rather waiving crew rest rules!

You can do it however 401 will let you, but what makes sense to me is that you designate a J code (in command, alternate mission). If the A-code gets out of the seat for crew rest, the J-code is in the seat. The primary A-code can log other time now. Of course, you can have the A-code out of the seat, but if you're sound asleep in a crew bunk somewhere, I'd argue that you're not in command...really. More reason to have two A-codes.

Of course, your crew ratios/manning may not allow for that, so do what you can legally. I can't reconcile other and A-code time at all in my pea brain though...it doesn't compute. I realize 401 doesn't prohibit it, but it doesn't make sense to me at all...but I'm slow.

I need to learn to type in past-tense since I won't be flying them like that anymore (just got on with a contractor for ferry & FCF work flying same planes though).

C-130Driver

Like previous posts, I would say it depends on the individual and the specific company to which you are applying. Most companies specify whether they will accept "other" time. It's fairly easy to explain that you could log significant time in a herc shuttling to and from desert rotations. I probably have somewhere around 400 other hours and count none of them towards "A Coded" time. Legal to count? Yes. I'm "A coded" but sitting on the bunk. Is that something I want confusing someone in a job interview? No. Definitely a personal choice/opinion thing I think. I take the conservative route and don't count it.

smee

Bottom line, your log book is YOUR log book. For me, I copied all of my A-Forms into Log10 Pro--didn't interpret or interpolate. If I got credit for primary time while a co-pilot, then so be it. But when it came to logging time as an a/c, I still kept whatever split was annotated in the A-forms. I did not include any additives for each flight to account for block time (eg. .2 or .3 per sortie). If it comes down to that, then it should be simple enough to take the number of total flights in the AF times whatever multiplier the company wants to use, and voila you have your number. My numbers for my 121 apps were very conservative. I'm sure I could have skewed the numbers a little, but I didn't see the point. If you look at the FAR/AIM, you are not required to provide substantiating documents. It's on your honor. Most of us take that to heart, but there are some that will take advantage of that. Whoa be the dude that embellishes/lies. From what I've seen, they tend to self-identify. As long as you can explain your logic and your logic is sound--WRT YOUR log book--you have nothing to worry about. Many different techniques. Choose yours smartly and stick with it.

Cheers,
Smee

KC10 FATboy

This is my biggest gripe with AMC -- LACK OF STANDARDIZATION. The problem is, the USAF doesn't use or define PIC or SIC. Instead they use Primary, Secondary, and Other time. Also, there seems to be a misunderstanding of what Primary time is. Primary time is not PIC or A-code time.

PRIMARY: time actively controlling the aircraft, excluding hands-on-time flown while instructing and evaluating

SECONDARY: time while occupying a duty position having a set of flight controls and not actively controlling the aircraft, instructing, or evaluating

OTHER: time flown by members who are on the flight authorization, but who are not occupying a designated duty station or conforming to the requirements of primary, secondary, instructor, or evaluator time

It is that definition of Other time that has HR teams in a tizzy. Since there is no tracking of PIC time or "A-code", someone could have several flights of nothing but OTHER time and could lie and say they were the PIC. Simply put, there is no way to track PIC time in the USAF.

HR teams who regularly hire USAF pilots know the ins and out of AFORMs Flying History reports. Submitting your own logbook may compound the issue -- not to mention it might not be a legal log book if it doesn't contain instructor endorsements.

My two cents .. be conservative, use AFORMs for USAF military flying time verification, and DON'T use other time.

CAFB 04-12

Over the past 5 or so years flying rules (11-217 and 11-202) have come more in line with ICAO and FAR/AIM guidance. I think it's time that 11-401 got in line as well.