Grumble

If I'm not actually flying, it doesn't go in my logbook.

i.e. if I was in the back of the mcDozen, I wouldn't even log it.

KC10 FATboy

When G2 replaced Ed Philips, we had the squadron AFORMs office create and track new tables within AFORMs because G2 wasn't working correctly. I wonder if they could create PIC and SIC columns and have it print on the Flying History Summary form? If so, that would rock the casbah.

When the leadership barks at the request, the reason for the change could be that the AMC ORM sheet asks how much PIC time the Aircraft Commander has. And since this question goes back to a safety issue (C17 half on half off runway landing by an AC who flew the desk more than the jet), it would justify the request. The problem is, NOBODY knows the answer to that question since they don't track PIC time. This would be a way to satisfy AMC's stupid ORM sheet requirement AND your PIC/SIC problem.

PIC would be defined as A-code. SIC would be everything else.

What do ya'll think?

Actually, I know how to get this ball rolling. The next time any of you evaluators SAV a unit, ask them how they track PIC time with reference to the ORM sheet.

Galaxydriver

AMC doesn't even want to touch this issue. We regularly fly 24-hour missions with 3 pilots (1 AC and 2 FPs). You start changing things and folks will ask why we have to abide by all the FARs but get to make up our own rules for FDP. They also don't want to really answer that question about how you can be the PIC (and responsible for everything) while sleeping in the bunk.

USMCFLYR

The way that every captain of a ship has been since man first sailed the open sea?

USMCFLYR

Galaxydriver

How qualified is the second in command of a ship vs 2 Lts who are not AC qualified?

LowSlowT2

I think it should change, but the institutional inertia means it won't likely happen and the law of unintended consequences means it will screw up more than it will fix because it is such a different change.

I just wish ARMS would stay out of it. 60-1 used to be all of 40 pages, most of which talked about it being a commander's program. Now, 11-401 is, what, 140-160 pages with matching MAJCOM sups and is nothing more than ARMS trying to find ways to make life harder...

Gimme back my 55-series books too!

...wait, I'm retired now...I can relax and let my blood pressure return to normal...

AF2Navy

ditto.........I also keep a personal logbook and have never logged other time in any of my 5 military airframes.

KC10 FATboy

AMC may not want to touch the issue, but their own documents now refer to the term PIC. They brought it up. As the A-code, you've ALWAYS been responsible for everything ... in the seat or bunk. The scenario doesn't change. If the First Officer and Relief Pilot do something stupid with the aircraft, I assure you, the snoozing PIC is going to get nailed. Again, I think there is a confusion between PIC/SIC and PRI/SEC time. They aren't the same. PIC = who signed for the jet/who is final authority for the jet (command time). PRI and SEC are "in seat" times, flying and monitoring.

LowSlowT2

That's so complicated. Just do what we do - waive crew rest & FDP when needed.

Elcid93

Any C-17 guys have experience with this? I would say 90% of my time was on augmented crews and the time was split evenly though the 3 crew members (primary,secondary, and other). After talking to other MWS guys, this wasn't really an issue because most of their crews were basic. I think it's crazy to not count almost a third of my time past AC cert because of an extra crewmember.

On one of the military conversion spreadsheets on this site states "*Note: Copilot OTHER time is not included in SIC time nor is any student time. This is based on FAR 61.51 (logging second in command). The KC-135 is a dual pilot required airplane; therefore both the primary and secondary time as co-pilot, assumes I was at one set of controls. The other time based on the best information available could be counted as SIC in the overall time based on an article in Dec 98 issue of Airline Pilot Careers, page 31. Article stated "Since you are all required crew members according to military regulations….all the time in flight may be logged as SIC, or if you signed for the aircraft, as PIC." I did not use this approach for SIC but I did for PIC because of the 90% applied (more conservetive)."


I can't find this article anymore online, so I don't know if it is even worth talking about. But I'm curious to know what other heavily augmented crews did about this.