failed UPT check and applications
03-31-2012, 11:16 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
My flying history folder has a UPT record in it. It lists every daily grade/flight and checkride. Perhaps I'm the only one with this document? But it clearly shows where I busted my nav check.
Reality is, the airline will probably never know if you lied. Are you willing to bet your career on it? Because once you lie and get caught for something like that, you don't recover. But they'll never know right?
Reality is, the airline will probably never know if you lied. Are you willing to bet your career on it? Because once you lie and get caught for something like that, you don't recover. But they'll never know right?
03-31-2012, 11:52 AM
#12
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,544
All our check rides were listed as NG (no grade). We didnt get a 5E or 6U...just a number of downgrades and pass or faill. So I'm not sure how they could even tell without getting each individual grade sheet.
Although I'm not sure if it's really that big of a deal. I was asked in my applications if I've ever busted a 141 phase check. I put that I had and it never even came up in any interview. If anything it's another talking piece to turn around into a lesson learned. Noone is perfect...probably looking for a pattern of multiple busted rides.
Although I'm not sure if it's really that big of a deal. I was asked in my applications if I've ever busted a 141 phase check. I put that I had and it never even came up in any interview. If anything it's another talking piece to turn around into a lesson learned. Noone is perfect...probably looking for a pattern of multiple busted rides.
03-31-2012, 01:55 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: missionary
Posts: 320
If you deny your UPT busts, you better make sure the numbers "88" or "89" don't appear anywhere in your logbook or flight history printouts.
Interviewers and military pilots know what those numbers mean.
FWIW, I busted my T-38 form check. I admitted it to UPS, and got hired.
Besides, I'll bet the interviewers know they'll never have access to UPT records, so perhaps they're impressed by the integrity of a pilot candidate confessing something that would otherwise never be discovered.
Then again, why make yourself look bad when you don't have to? Just make sure your logbook and records are bulletproof. Nothing will end an interview faster than even a hint of fraud.
Interviewers and military pilots know what those numbers mean.
FWIW, I busted my T-38 form check. I admitted it to UPS, and got hired.
Besides, I'll bet the interviewers know they'll never have access to UPT records, so perhaps they're impressed by the integrity of a pilot candidate confessing something that would otherwise never be discovered.
Then again, why make yourself look bad when you don't have to? Just make sure your logbook and records are bulletproof. Nothing will end an interview faster than even a hint of fraud.
03-31-2012, 02:14 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,096
I don't think a UPT bust is going to keep you from getting the call or getting hired. These companies realize people aren't perfect. They want safe and honest pilots with integrity. If during the hiring phase you give them any reason to think you are anything but that, you will not be hired.
I agree highsky. But I am a horrible liar and there's no way during an interview I could look a bunch of HR and management folks in the eye and tell them I had never failed a check ride. They would know I wasn't telling the truth.
I know of a fellow military pilot who had multiple Q2 and Q3s in his past. He was hired. I also know folks with zero PIC time and have been hired. Of course friends in high places help.
I agree highsky. But I am a horrible liar and there's no way during an interview I could look a bunch of HR and management folks in the eye and tell them I had never failed a check ride. They would know I wasn't telling the truth.
I know of a fellow military pilot who had multiple Q2 and Q3s in his past. He was hired. I also know folks with zero PIC time and have been hired. Of course friends in high places help.
03-31-2012, 04:12 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: Tail Surfing on a 737
Posts: 64
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
I don't think a UPT bust is going to keep you from getting the call or getting hired. These companies realize people aren't perfect. They want safe and honest pilots with integrity. If during the hiring phase you give them any reason to think you are anything but that, you will not be hired.
I agree highsky. But I am a horrible liar and there's no way during an interview I could look a bunch of HR and management folks in the eye and tell them I had never failed a check ride. They would know I wasn't telling the truth.
I know of a fellow military pilot who had multiple Q2 and Q3s in his past. He was hired. I also know folks with zero PIC time and have been hired. Of course friends in high places help.
I agree highsky. But I am a horrible liar and there's no way during an interview I could look a bunch of HR and management folks in the eye and tell them I had never failed a check ride. They would know I wasn't telling the truth.
I know of a fellow military pilot who had multiple Q2 and Q3s in his past. He was hired. I also know folks with zero PIC time and have been hired. Of course friends in high places help.
03-31-2012, 04:46 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,096
I never said anyone was a liar. Nor did I say they didn't have integrity.
The questions I've seen on the applications don't say "FAA" check ride. The ones I've seen are "Have you ever failed ANY checkride, proficiency check, line check etc.etc."
Answer it like you wish. I answered yes and I never had any issues. I was asked about it during the interview, spoke to it, moved on. No biggie.
My point is, if you give the HR / management folks ANY reason to believe you aren't being truthful, you're interview will not be successful. Knowing you had this discussion and how others disagreed with your answer choice, means that when you are asked, you better have a good poker face. These people are trained to determine whether you have been truthful.
The questions I've seen on the applications don't say "FAA" check ride. The ones I've seen are "Have you ever failed ANY checkride, proficiency check, line check etc.etc."
Answer it like you wish. I answered yes and I never had any issues. I was asked about it during the interview, spoke to it, moved on. No biggie.
My point is, if you give the HR / management folks ANY reason to believe you aren't being truthful, you're interview will not be successful. Knowing you had this discussion and how others disagreed with your answer choice, means that when you are asked, you better have a good poker face. These people are trained to determine whether you have been truthful.
03-31-2012, 05:25 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: Tail Surfing on a 737
Posts: 64
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
I never said anyone was a liar. Nor did I say they didn't have integrity.
........ Knowing you had this discussion and how others disagreed with your answer choice, means that when you are asked, you better have a good poker face. These people are trained to determine whether you have been truthful.
........ Knowing you had this discussion and how others disagreed with your answer choice, means that when you are asked, you better have a good poker face. These people are trained to determine whether you have been truthful.
A phase check is not a checkride. I have no problem honestly answering questions about failed phase checks or failed check rides. They're just not the same question and they won't be the same answer.
03-31-2012, 06:00 PM
#18
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Bring your FEF
I busted my Nav-check in UPT. It doesn't show up in my Flight Evaluation folder.
Nonetheless, I admitted it on applications. But I also brought a copy of my FEF to the United interview. Not a required document----I asked the interviewing Captain if he was former military: "Air Force." I said "Sir, I brought my FEF if you'd like to look at it." It served two purposes: one, it showed I had nothing to hide in my checkride history. Two, it showed lots of checkrides with accolades.....
I have put a traffic citation on applications even though it doesn't show in any National Driver's Record search that I've seen. It turns out that honesty (in most endeavors, but particularly aviation) really is the best policy.
Nonetheless, I admitted it on applications. But I also brought a copy of my FEF to the United interview. Not a required document----I asked the interviewing Captain if he was former military: "Air Force." I said "Sir, I brought my FEF if you'd like to look at it." It served two purposes: one, it showed I had nothing to hide in my checkride history. Two, it showed lots of checkrides with accolades.....
I have put a traffic citation on applications even though it doesn't show in any National Driver's Record search that I've seen. It turns out that honesty (in most endeavors, but particularly aviation) really is the best policy.
03-31-2012, 06:07 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 40
So, I have about 100 evaluator hours (+/- 60 form 8 checkrides I gave.) According to some of the higher logic here, I should count all of the little category checkrides I gave, cert rides I gave (cause they can be failed), 88's, 89's, etc, which would run me up to probably 300 eval hours. Can't even imagine explaining that, cause all category checks, cert rides, etc., I logged IP time. Cant have it both ways. It's either a real checkride or it's not.
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