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Restricted ATP for NFOs?

Old 08-29-2014, 05:38 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
The S-3 guys (when sitting in the front-right seat) actually had a set of flight controls, and did routinely fly the aircraft to relieve the pilot.

No problem with logging that IMO, if they have a pilot license and the regulatory ins & outs don't preclude it. They shouldn't be logging any LDGs though...
Yep, and there's a set of controls in the back seat of USAF F-4s and F-15Es, too, and the WSOs I spoke of were logging time in which they were the sole manipulator of those controls. Perfectly legal and authorized in the eyes of the USAF, and used to happen quite regularly (I used to let my WSOs fly the RTB if they so desired).

The problem comes in the fact that to be "qualified" in the eyes of the FAA to fly a multiengine turbojet aircraft with a weight of more than 12,500#, one must have a type rating or equivalent. The FAA defines that, in Air Force paper-speak, as a Form 8 instrument qualification as a pilot (or a similar checkride) -- which a WSO does not have. Thus, even with a AMEL ticket, they're not qualified to act as PIC or log it under the FAA Pat 61 PIC rules.

My previous post simply referenced a FSDO Inspector years ago who chose to recognize the WSO checkride as being an equivalent type rating, and thus recognized their flight time as such. So far as I'm aware, that is not an opinion that is shared by many/any FSDOs currently.

So, in the case of the S-3 flying above, if the NFOs have the requisite qualification that the FAA would recognize as a type rating equivalent, then absolutely it could be logged under the Part 61 rules.

Again, most major airlines specifically do not recognize such time.
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:35 AM
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Take a look at 61.159, for it to count it's gotta be Pilot time or FE time.....
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Old 08-30-2014, 03:19 PM
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I have no doubt it's sketchy from a regulatory perspective.
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:48 PM
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Looks cut and dry to me....
§61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.

(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 50 hours of flight time in the class of airplane for the rating sought. A maximum of 25 hours of training in a full flight simulator representing the class of airplane for the rating sought may be credited toward the flight time requirement of this paragraph if the training was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter. A flight training device or aviation training device may not be used to satisfy this requirement.

(4) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(4)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(4) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(5) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and

(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.

(6) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section or §61.160 may be obtained in a full flight simulator or flight training device provided the device represents an airplane and the aeronautical experience was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.

(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.

(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:

(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—

(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane’s flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;

(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or

(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.

(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time—

(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane’s flight manual or type certificate;

(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;

(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and

(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—

(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces’ flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;

(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and

(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

(d) An applicant is issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the limitation, “Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO,’’ as prescribed under Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant does not meet the ICAO requirements contained in Annex 1 “Personnel Licensing’’ to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, but otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.

(e) An applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the ICAO limitation specified under paragraph (d) of this section when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the ICAO requirements under paragraph (d) of this section and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:28 AM
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Jato, which paragraph makes it "cut and dry"?
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Old 09-01-2014, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by HuggyU2 View Post
Jato, which paragraph makes it "cut and dry"?
^^^ Yeah, what he said...
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Old 09-01-2014, 06:52 AM
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You guys are kidding right?
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Old 09-01-2014, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Jato View Post
You guys are kidding right?
No, not kidding. This paragraph:

(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane’s flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;


could reasonably be taken to include an NFO flying the airplane from the right seat as permitted/required by NATOPS. But the FAA can often interpret regulatory language any way they like, and the NTSB will back them up so precedent is probably more important than the words when you get into the grey areas.
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Old 09-01-2014, 11:02 AM
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Here is an interesting opposite situation. The two seat RB-57F had no flight controls in the back seat. It was all recon equipment. My first flight in the aircraft was with an instructor who "came along for the ride." He logged USAF IP time without a set of controls.
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Old 09-01-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Ftrooppilot View Post
Here is an interesting opposite situation. The two seat RB-57F had no flight controls in the back seat. It was all recon equipment. My first flight in the aircraft was with an instructor who "came along for the ride." He logged USAF IP time without a set of controls.
The designated PIC and/or IP can often log the time from the jumpseat or even the rack. If the IP was considered over-all responsible for the flight just by virtue of being present it might be legit.

S-3 SIC is not as high-quality time as some other types of SIC, but it is better quality than other types of time that routinely gets logged per the regs in civil aviation.
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