Tshugart3

Hello all,

I am currently serving as a nuclear-trained US Navy submarine CO, with a few more years to go until the usual retirement point. As an amateur pilot, I am still quite new to flying, with just a PPL and at about 100 hrs. I am planning to start IFR training in about a month. I expect that, in my current assignment (over the next 10 months or so), I should be able to finish my instrument rating and maybe my commercial.

I would appreciate your thoughts on a few things. First, I am considering retiring from the Navy sooner (in the next 1-3 years) rather than later (I could stay in probably another 8 or so if I wanted to). If I did retire earlier, it would be to pursue a 2nd career in aviation. I have come to really enjoy flying airplanes. I am passionate about it, I think about it a lot (I listen to liveatc.net for fun), and I enjoy doing it.

Trying to stay co-located in the military with my wife (active Army) will likely become harder and harder, with little likelihood that she will never be able to be stationed where we have submarines. It seems that with a flying job, I could live almost anywhere and commute to work as necessary.

My reasons to stick with the Navy:
- Job satisfaction - I think that what we do is important.
- $$$ - If I leave now (as an O-5) rather than as an O-6 (if everything goes OK from here, this is pretty much guaranteed), I would leave well over a half-million bucks on the table WRT lifetime retirement pay.
- If I leave now to be a professional pilot, I understand that I will make very little for probably 5-10 years. In terms of the price of flying, it would be a lot lower to just keep working for Uncle Sam and buy my own airplane and fly it until I get tired of it. (Of course, finding time to fly it is another matter…). I understand that I will be taking an over 80% pay cut initially.
- I know that I am taking for granted the respect and status that I have in my current job, and that it will be tough to be at the bottom of the totem pole again if I start over in aviation.

Some questions that I have are:
- do you have any thoughts on the “pilot shortage” that is said to be happening at the regionals? Is it real? Are the 1500-hr rule, 65-year retirements and FAR117 changes really having an effect? Do you think it will have any significant effect on pay? Is the pay really as bad as I hear it is? Is there any chance the ATP FO Part 121 requirement will go away?
- I've read some pretty hellish accounts of regional schedules and lifestyle (e.g., groggy and tired all the time). Have the FAR117 changes had an impact to improve QOL? I’ve already done the sleep-deprivation thing in my Navy career, and don’t really feel like doing a lot of it again.
- it looks like I have two options for flight training:
- rip the band-aid off, pay someone like ATP $60K, and get it done in ~4 months. CFI or something until 1500 hrs and then get to work. I have the money to pay for training with no problem and incurring no debt.
- go to a degree-awarding public college for an aviation-related degree. Get the GI Bill to pay for the whole thing, and then I only have to get to 1000 hrs to get the R-ATP. I figure this would take two years. I would fly on the side to try to be at 1000 when I graduated. BTW, I already have a respectable mechanical engineering BS (with a high GPA) and an MA from a US War College.
- do my (non-flying) military background as a served ship CO and my degrees have any value WRT being hired by the majors? Or are they just looking for flight time?
- any idea how many years people signing up now will likely spend in the regionals before getting hired by the majors?

In summary, I am considering forgoing a very cozy retirement to retire a bit earlier (for less money) and take a monster pay cut to fly airplanes for a living. Am I crazy? (my wife thinks so, but says that she'll support me)

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

HuggyU2

It's 1 a.m. and I was heading to bed when I saw this.
Drop me a note if you want to discuss further. But, no... I wouldn't do it. Stay in if you like it, and are willing to put up with life as an O-6.
Are you considering this because:
- you want to fly part 121?
- or because you want to fly?

There is a ton of cool flying out there... not just 121.
Huggy

DC8DRIVER

You are very over-qualified to be an airline pilot. If you decide to get out of the Navy, choose a career in the military / industrial world. Be a consultant or whatever. There, your pay, benefits, and quality of life would be "normal" to very, very good as compared to the life of an airline pilot.

And, if you truly love to fly, get a good job away from the airline industry and buy a cub, or a Baron, or a Pitts, or a glider, or whatever flying machine seems to be your cup of tea. Your life will be much better in the long run.

8

e6bpilot

What Huggy said.
I am a former submariner turned Navy pilot turned airline pilot. I have only heard of one other guy going the route you are considering, and he was a Trident CO who retired as an O-6 in the late 90's. He flew for SKW for a number of years, not sure if he is even still doing it. He did it because it was a great retirement job. He was making 70 grand a year in retirement, had his affairs in order, was an empty nester, and just wanted the travel benefits and some pay while flying a minimal schedule and traveling around.
You CAN do it. It will be much less punishing than nuke school and the nuke officer pipeline that you are accustomed to. I just don't know why you would want to when you will have so many other folks willing to hire you and pay you well for the skills and experience you already have vs. starting over from scratch in a career field that is designed for 22 year olds willing to starve for a while.
My advice? Use that gi bill for flight training if you want to, get a job that allows you to buy your own airplane, and fly for yourself on the weekends. Unless you have a decade to burn and don't like money, this really isn't a great career to start from scratch in.

rickair7777

Bill Large did retire from SKW recently. I know several ex-1120's in the airline world but he was the only post-command guy.

To the OP, if your goal is a major airline I suspect that the necessary dues to get there would not provide a good ROI. Or maybe it would, major hiring could really get crazy in the next few years.

If you'd be OK with a regional, you could carefully pick a decent one that had good geography for you and plan on hanging out. Go in with the awareness that pay will top out around $100K and that the inherent instability of the regionals could find you on the street at age 57, or forced to move or commute halfway across the country. Upside there is that you could readily get a non-aviation job if needed based on your background.

Your credentials are impeccable and broadly applicable, but much of that would be N/A to airline aviation. The required skills are narrower in scope, but deeper in some parts of that narrow range ie at your age it's possible that you would find learning the hand/eye coordination challenging (odds are you'd get it done, since your work ethic will make up for a lot). As a nuke you'll have no problems with learning systems and procedures, and a submarine works much like an airplane anyway (but no calculus required).

In airlines (especially regionals) you'll find that you've stepped down a rung or two, but life will be simpler...if you're tired of the grind and pressure and can make the downshift without feeling unfullfilled it might work out.

There is a shortage at the entry-level, you (or anyone else) will have no problem getting a regional job. I suspect the majors will hire pretty good over the next 10 years as well.

Regionals, yes it's horrible.

Majors, it's pretty decent for the work you do and if you get to widebody CA you'd make somewhat more than you did in the Navy.

Not any time soon. Start building time.

117 has reduced on-the-job fatigue in that you can no longer be scheduled for an 8 hour layover, with a 45 minute van ride to the hotel, minus eat/shave/shower leaving you with four hours sleep before a 15-hour day.

The downside to 117 is that pilots who want to cram a lot of work into a small footprint can't do it anymore so we have less days off now (especially regional pilots whose multi-leg schedules were more impacted by 117). Effect on widebody/international is probably negligible.

ATP is probably faster. You'd be underwhelmed doing a two-year aviation degree. At least at ATP you could do it at your pace and not be wasting your time learning 101 physics principles from some junior college prof who wouldn't have been able to complete NNPS had he tried.

Remember to enjoy your time as a CFI!

The majors screen using computer applications now, it's all about which boxes you check. A masters will help, and a military background will help, but there's no box to check for SSN CO. That would come into play at the interview, but I'll tell you now that you'd need to be careful that you don't come across as "overly confident"...they'll be wary of that given your background.

Also, know any naval aviators from school? Reach out to them and build your network. Internal recommendations also play into the hiring process.

It could take 2-3 years to acquire 1500 hours once you start training. Actually you could start now as a PPL and spend some of your limited days off turning avgas into noise (try for night and XC, and actual IMC once rated).

Once at a regional, likely 2-3 years to upgrade (maybe less but you'll need a minimum amount of turbine /121 time to be eligible) and then two years to acquire 1000 TPIC.

That counts for a lot, and unlike many women who don't know what they're getting into she's used to you being gone. Actually you'll be home more and not gone for nearly as long.


Feel free to pmail or vmessage me.

DCA A321 FO

My Nuke friend at Exelon was making close to $200,000 so that plus your retirement you could play pilot on the weekends.

Packrat

Agreed. At this point in your career stay Navy and look toward a "retirement" career as a CFI or aviation college instructor. You have the credentials for the professorial role and you can work at the college as a CFI as well.

Airline flying isn't all its cracked up to be. There are a lot of other aviation avenues out there to pursue.

You can always get your "pilot giggles" as a hobby as well.

Tshugart3

Thanks to all for your replies and words of wisdom. I think that for now I'll work on my quals in my free time and stick with the Navy until I get tired of it or they decide it's time for me to move on.

Again, many thanks and safe flying to you all.

HuggyU2

And until then... put Oshkosh (in 3 weeks) and the Reno Air Races (16-20 Sept) on your bucket list. If you love aviation, you've got to go. They are very different, but both are great.

Toonces

As an addition, a member of my reserve unit was an 1120, went into civil aviation and now flies for United. He is close to high year tenure as an O-5 and has remained active in the SFRC since his departure from AD. Flying is worth it - just be sure to drive your next career in the direction you need to derive the quality of life you desire. Not all aviation jobs will provide that.