ATP Centerline Thrust Hours?
11-27-2015, 10:51 AM
#1
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Joined APC: Nov 2015
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ATP Centerline Thrust Hours?
Hey guys, new to the forums but in need of a second opinion.
First some background: I'm a current AD F-16 pilot who had some GA flight time prior to UPT. From that GA experience I have roughly 30 hours in light twins and a ME rating with no centerline thrust restriction. Between my GA time and my Air Force time I have the 1500 hrs/500 XC time needed for the ATP checkride.
Today when I went to take said checkride the DPE noticed that the 50 hrs ME time required was fulfilled by both these GA twin hours and the remainder by time I had in the T-38. After 30 minutes of looking up regulations and increasingly heated discussion he decided that because part of my required ME time came from a centerline thrust aircraft he wouldn't administer the ride.
To me this seems crazy. As far as I can tell 14 CFR part 61.159 simply specifies class of aircraft (AMEL in this case) for the 50 hr requirement. And if a T-38 isn't an AMEL, what is it?
My real question is: does anyone else have any experience with this issue? Seems to me that if the DPE is right (currently under discussion at the local FSDO) it sets a pretty poor precedent for all the fighter pilots out there that haven't ponied up for this arbitrary number of hours droning around in a Piper that want to get their ATPs.
First some background: I'm a current AD F-16 pilot who had some GA flight time prior to UPT. From that GA experience I have roughly 30 hours in light twins and a ME rating with no centerline thrust restriction. Between my GA time and my Air Force time I have the 1500 hrs/500 XC time needed for the ATP checkride.
Today when I went to take said checkride the DPE noticed that the 50 hrs ME time required was fulfilled by both these GA twin hours and the remainder by time I had in the T-38. After 30 minutes of looking up regulations and increasingly heated discussion he decided that because part of my required ME time came from a centerline thrust aircraft he wouldn't administer the ride.
To me this seems crazy. As far as I can tell 14 CFR part 61.159 simply specifies class of aircraft (AMEL in this case) for the 50 hr requirement. And if a T-38 isn't an AMEL, what is it?
My real question is: does anyone else have any experience with this issue? Seems to me that if the DPE is right (currently under discussion at the local FSDO) it sets a pretty poor precedent for all the fighter pilots out there that haven't ponied up for this arbitrary number of hours droning around in a Piper that want to get their ATPs.
11-27-2015, 11:29 AM
#3
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Posts: 33
Prior to doing the 737 type/ATP program with HPA a couple years ago, ALL my AMEL time was centerline thrust (T-37, T-38). MWS experience was F-16 and U-2, both ASEL. I had a Comm AMEL with centerline thrust restriction. HPA had me perform a couple extra maneuvers during the Type/ATP checkride that removed the centerline thrust restriction. Given that, I can't see why that would be an issue since you already have a ME rating with no restriction. Seems silly to me...just trying to CYA from the DPE.
Good luck!
Good luck!
11-27-2015, 12:20 PM
#4
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,549
I freaking love the FAA...call 10 FSDOs and get 10 different answers. I'm an F-16 guy as well, flew T-37s and T-38s and only had 25 hours of light twin time plus my ME rating. This issue never came up during my ATP ride. Lots of my squadron mates, whose only ME time was in the T-38, have been getting their ATPs recently...never been an issue. I would do some calling around to the local FSDOs.
11-27-2015, 12:46 PM
#5
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
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Originally Posted by crewdawg
I freaking love the FAA...call 10 FSDOs and get 10 different answers. I'm an F-16 guy as well, flew T-37s and T-38s and only had 25 hours of light twin time plus my ME rating. This issue never came up during my ATP ride. Lots of my squadron mates, whose only ME time was in the T-38, have been getting their ATPs recently...never been an issue. I would do some calling around to the local FSDOs.
The OP said it was in discussion at the FSDO right now.
Why don't we wait until he gets that answer before throwing the FSDO under the bus
If your buddies are getting their ATPs with only T-38 time, then that 'CL thrust restriction' is being removed during some training/checking program in a non-CL thrust AMEL - as most of us did unless you already had a AMEL before coming into the military, so your ticket never had the 'CL thrust restriction' on it in the first place.
I freaking love the FAA...call 10 FSDOs and get 10 different answers.
11-27-2015, 01:10 PM
#6
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So, after much discussion it looks like the DPE was out to lunch on this - a case of overly cautious CYA-ness. Like I had concluded going into the checkride, ME time is ME time, totally irrelevant if it's CL thrust or not (for logging reasons) once the restriction is removed.
So now I'm back where I started, needing a new DPE after wasting half a day and considerable teeth gnashing. If anyone needs the name of a good examiner not to use in the SLC area, message me and I'll be glad to give you an earful.
So now I'm back where I started, needing a new DPE after wasting half a day and considerable teeth gnashing. If anyone needs the name of a good examiner not to use in the SLC area, message me and I'll be glad to give you an earful.
11-27-2015, 01:21 PM
#7
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by StrikerB
So, after much discussion it looks like the DPE was out to lunch on this - a case of overly cautious CYA-ness. Like I had concluded going into the checkride, ME time is ME time, totally irrelevant if it's CL thrust or not (for logging reasons) once the restriction is removed.
So now I'm back where I started, needing a new DPE after wasting half a day and considerable teeth gnashing. If anyone needs the name of a good examiner not to use in the SLC area, message me and I'll be glad to give you an earful.
So now I'm back where I started, needing a new DPE after wasting half a day and considerable teeth gnashing. If anyone needs the name of a good examiner not to use in the SLC area, message me and I'll be glad to give you an earful.
Glad you got that straightened out StrikerB.
Good luck on the rest of the journey too.
11-27-2015, 01:21 PM
#8
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,549
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
This seems to be the DPE who is confused in this instance.
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
As far as FSDO shopping.....first let's string all of the lawyers up who write this confusing regulations and have the regs written in PLAIN ENGLISH. I blame every on lawyers.
Striker...glad you got it cleared up, sorry to hear about issues. Best of luck!
11-27-2015, 01:36 PM
#9
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Thanks for all the inputs fellas.
FWIW, the original DPE admitted he was wrong to a degree, but still wanted to issue me an ATP with a CL thrust restriction(?!). When he started asking about when a good date to reschedule the ride would be I had to "yeeeaaahh, thanks but no thanks" him.
FWIW, the original DPE admitted he was wrong to a degree, but still wanted to issue me an ATP with a CL thrust restriction(?!). When he started asking about when a good date to reschedule the ride would be I had to "yeeeaaahh, thanks but no thanks" him.
11-27-2015, 05:59 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by StrikerB
Thanks for all the inputs fellas.
FWIW, the original DPE admitted he was wrong to a degree, but still wanted to issue me an ATP with a CL thrust restriction(?!). When he started asking about when a good date to reschedule the ride would be I had to "yeeeaaahh, thanks but no thanks" him.
FWIW, the original DPE admitted he was wrong to a degree, but still wanted to issue me an ATP with a CL thrust restriction(?!). When he started asking about when a good date to reschedule the ride would be I had to "yeeeaaahh, thanks but no thanks" him.
You need 50 hours ME. Period.
Whether you have a CL restriction depends on the aircraft used for the checkride, not the aeronautical experience. If you demonstrate non-CL thrust skills on the checkride, then you get a normal ATP.
The CL thrust is typical on commercial tickets which were issued based on military CL thrust experience. Not the norm to have CL thrust ATP.
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