military reserve AND airline pilot worth it?
01-25-2016, 02:52 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Center seat, doing loops to music
Posts: 825
Tummy you're missing the point. One furlough throws your math out the window. See 9/11. It s not about the money or optimism biased hypotheticals that involve no hiccups in your civilian income history. it's insurance, and schedule leverage for the opportunity cost of having a second boss. It is noted the new payscales don't have the penalty the old ones had regarding junior years. The idea that reserve duty is touted as a lucrative proposition in present day reserve circles is simply not an accurate dynamic, it's a great Straw man though.
Once again, the value of the reserve gig is not materialized when your career is skyrocketing, but rather when delta kicks you to the curb like cheap seasonal worker the day after Xmas. This stuff works in cycles. Caveat emptor to those who fail to acknowledge that in their time value of money pollyanna excel spreadsheets.
Everybody has their own motivator. They let me fly upside down and I'm not baller enough to not miss my reserve retirement, considering I have no intention on working past 60 nor do I give a credence to the assumption I won't have employment gaps as an airline pilot. That's my life excel spreadsheet fwiw. To each their own.
Once again, the value of the reserve gig is not materialized when your career is skyrocketing, but rather when delta kicks you to the curb like cheap seasonal worker the day after Xmas. This stuff works in cycles. Caveat emptor to those who fail to acknowledge that in their time value of money pollyanna excel spreadsheets.
Everybody has their own motivator. They let me fly upside down and I'm not baller enough to not miss my reserve retirement, considering I have no intention on working past 60 nor do I give a credence to the assumption I won't have employment gaps as an airline pilot. That's my life excel spreadsheet fwiw. To each their own.
01-25-2016, 03:47 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
Tummy,
That was the exact math a bunch of guys gave me, as a SQ/DO in 1991, post-deactivation, and another group gave me in the late '90s when contracts were exploding and hiring was a vertical curve. All came back to my office in 2003. It's an income insurance policy, not an income source. Also, a UTA weekend has always been pretty close to a median mortgage payment, not coincidently.
My O-5 retirement is bigger than my Social Security check.
I'll admit being in the Marines has a different calculus than in the USAF.
GF
That was the exact math a bunch of guys gave me, as a SQ/DO in 1991, post-deactivation, and another group gave me in the late '90s when contracts were exploding and hiring was a vertical curve. All came back to my office in 2003. It's an income insurance policy, not an income source. Also, a UTA weekend has always been pretty close to a median mortgage payment, not coincidently.
My O-5 retirement is bigger than my Social Security check.
I'll admit being in the Marines has a different calculus than in the USAF.
GF
01-25-2016, 04:01 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 327
As tummy pointed out, the airline job crushes the mil job in terms of dollars brought home. No doubt. I lose cash every time I go to the squadron. With that being said, here is why I am staying in the guard....
1) as a young CP, I watch my furloughed United, American, and Delta bros stay alive because of the mil job. Literally. They had kids in college and our squadron bent over backwards to ensure some sort of paycheck.
2) Tricare Reserve Select. Can't touch it in the civ world. Saves my family a SH!Tload of money. That's all I have to say about that.
3)airline flying is not mil flying. I can't remember the guys name I flew with last week at the airline. In another week I won't be able to pick him out of a lineup. There is nothing in the world that compares to the fraternity of a mil squadron. Especially an ANG/RES squadron. It truly is a family.
4)retirement. Multiple sources of income. Unless you are a FedEx dude, you won't have pension. Yeah you will have a sizable 401K, Roth, etch. That check of the month club will be nice when it starts. Assuming the government doesn't screw it up....
1) as a young CP, I watch my furloughed United, American, and Delta bros stay alive because of the mil job. Literally. They had kids in college and our squadron bent over backwards to ensure some sort of paycheck.
2) Tricare Reserve Select. Can't touch it in the civ world. Saves my family a SH!Tload of money. That's all I have to say about that.
3)airline flying is not mil flying. I can't remember the guys name I flew with last week at the airline. In another week I won't be able to pick him out of a lineup. There is nothing in the world that compares to the fraternity of a mil squadron. Especially an ANG/RES squadron. It truly is a family.
4)retirement. Multiple sources of income. Unless you are a FedEx dude, you won't have pension. Yeah you will have a sizable 401K, Roth, etch. That check of the month club will be nice when it starts. Assuming the government doesn't screw it up....
01-25-2016, 11:38 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
I'll pile on with something I have shared with a lot of friends and clients....
Our family's financial security was like a 4 legged stool. One leg is the airline job. The next leg is our family business. The third leg is/was my wife's job and income, and the final leg was the ANG job. I always knew we'd thrive on 3 or 4, do just fine on 2, and survive on 1 if we had to.
The days at the unit are not for income, they are for insurance. The other factors Deuce put up are also very valuable.
When the economy hit the skids in 2008/9, FedEx cut their hours back. I had retired from the ANG, but with 3/4 we still rolled fine. A remember a FedEx pilot asking me if there was anything the union could do since he was gonna be short 8-12 hours a month. (At the time, that was 1200-2000 bucks). I asked if he wanted to any reserve work at his old flying unit : "naw...I don't think wife really wants me hanging it out that much anymore..." I asked what about a non flying (Millington?) staff position: "...to be honest, I just want to make a clean break..." Have you thought about doing anything on the side: "..I really dont' have any other skills...." and finally if his wife would consider going back to work: "...she just really wants to be home with the kids...."
In short--there was nothing I could say, or offer, or do that was going to crap him two grand to cover his mortgage. Everyone in this industry says "don't live paycheck to paycheck" but for some folks who are new to the airline, have special needs kids or are recently divorced, sometimes there just isn't a lot of savings to fall back on when things go south. So--you better have a plan--outside of your airline--to weather a downturn should it happen.
FWIW...later in 2009 nobody in any industry seemed to be hiring. The world was falling apart economically. In my hometown, many former successful businessmen were going chapter 11 and losing homes after leveraging too far on the real estate boom. It just sucked--everywhere you looked. I regretted bailing on the ANG at that point, even though I was post 20 years. I submitted a package to re-enter and be an AOC guy, because I realized I didn't really like having two of the four legs gone anymore (biz went dead in 2009). I finally did get the offer to come back in--after a 2.5 year boondoogle of admin hell I won't bore you with--and by that time had been taken over by events. My point is even though my life was super--when things got scary it would have nice even then to have had that extra layer of protection. There was a lot of ass-pain associated with doing the job, but there were also a lot of really, really good folks I'd have been working with again and that would have offset some of the headaches. Staying in until 24, 28, or more probably could have led to an O-6 position, and if not a higher time in grade for O-5. The cost was not free, but another plus had I done it would have been securing the GI bill for one of my kid's educations. Now that just comes VFR direct from my pocket--outside the scholarships that don't cover that much.
The other thing I really liked--and about the only thing I missed--was being "on the team" against our enemies. While it was highly unlikely anyone was going to call up an F-15 RTU IP for any major GWOT campaigns, fact is I was current, qual'd, and should I have been needed would have been where they sent me. Since I retired, some from my state have been on contingency TDYs to the Pacific and the Persian Gulf. Nobody wants to die for their country, but being part of the team that kills for them has its own satisfaction. Even deeper than that I discovered that I really felt pretty weird once I did retire when something happened and feeling I was a spectator from the sidelines, not part of the team any longer.
Long rambling post I know...I apologize. In summary--if I had it to do over, I might have quit flying Eagles at 20 (my back said uncle after 2 x surgeries) but stayed another 4 or 8 working fewer days but staying on the team. Even if I lost a little money, I found the piece of mind valuable.
Our family's financial security was like a 4 legged stool. One leg is the airline job. The next leg is our family business. The third leg is/was my wife's job and income, and the final leg was the ANG job. I always knew we'd thrive on 3 or 4, do just fine on 2, and survive on 1 if we had to.
The days at the unit are not for income, they are for insurance. The other factors Deuce put up are also very valuable.
When the economy hit the skids in 2008/9, FedEx cut their hours back. I had retired from the ANG, but with 3/4 we still rolled fine. A remember a FedEx pilot asking me if there was anything the union could do since he was gonna be short 8-12 hours a month. (At the time, that was 1200-2000 bucks). I asked if he wanted to any reserve work at his old flying unit : "naw...I don't think wife really wants me hanging it out that much anymore..." I asked what about a non flying (Millington?) staff position: "...to be honest, I just want to make a clean break..." Have you thought about doing anything on the side: "..I really dont' have any other skills...." and finally if his wife would consider going back to work: "...she just really wants to be home with the kids...."
In short--there was nothing I could say, or offer, or do that was going to crap him two grand to cover his mortgage. Everyone in this industry says "don't live paycheck to paycheck" but for some folks who are new to the airline, have special needs kids or are recently divorced, sometimes there just isn't a lot of savings to fall back on when things go south. So--you better have a plan--outside of your airline--to weather a downturn should it happen.
FWIW...later in 2009 nobody in any industry seemed to be hiring. The world was falling apart economically. In my hometown, many former successful businessmen were going chapter 11 and losing homes after leveraging too far on the real estate boom. It just sucked--everywhere you looked. I regretted bailing on the ANG at that point, even though I was post 20 years. I submitted a package to re-enter and be an AOC guy, because I realized I didn't really like having two of the four legs gone anymore (biz went dead in 2009). I finally did get the offer to come back in--after a 2.5 year boondoogle of admin hell I won't bore you with--and by that time had been taken over by events. My point is even though my life was super--when things got scary it would have nice even then to have had that extra layer of protection. There was a lot of ass-pain associated with doing the job, but there were also a lot of really, really good folks I'd have been working with again and that would have offset some of the headaches. Staying in until 24, 28, or more probably could have led to an O-6 position, and if not a higher time in grade for O-5. The cost was not free, but another plus had I done it would have been securing the GI bill for one of my kid's educations. Now that just comes VFR direct from my pocket--outside the scholarships that don't cover that much.
The other thing I really liked--and about the only thing I missed--was being "on the team" against our enemies. While it was highly unlikely anyone was going to call up an F-15 RTU IP for any major GWOT campaigns, fact is I was current, qual'd, and should I have been needed would have been where they sent me. Since I retired, some from my state have been on contingency TDYs to the Pacific and the Persian Gulf. Nobody wants to die for their country, but being part of the team that kills for them has its own satisfaction. Even deeper than that I discovered that I really felt pretty weird once I did retire when something happened and feeling I was a spectator from the sidelines, not part of the team any longer.
Long rambling post I know...I apologize. In summary--if I had it to do over, I might have quit flying Eagles at 20 (my back said uncle after 2 x surgeries) but stayed another 4 or 8 working fewer days but staying on the team. Even if I lost a little money, I found the piece of mind valuable.
01-26-2016, 05:44 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: Pressing On
Posts: 524
As a long time active duty guy in reserve squadrons and world, for a long time i wondered why folks worked so hard to go be airline pilots only to turn around and come back and try to do as much AD and drilling as they could. Over many years and many beers and finally going to the dark side myself i learned the following things:
-No better way to ease the transition to a new life than the reserves. As long as you are only commuting to one of those you can handle it for a while.
-Income protection both in your low pay first years and furlough protection.
-Retired pay and Tricare for Life is a big deal.
-No better or other way to control your life as a junior airline pilot than with reserve drilling.
-Have a job or not, no better place to network.
-The GI Bill.
-Squadron life. Wearing the bag and flying, going to lunch, hanging out with your old and new friends is gone once you leave. Airline flying is soulless for the most part, but you don't have to take it home or live it 24/7. Sort of a wash.
On the other hand you are still in the admin grind and exposed to the BS things that made you leave. It will NOT be a very good day for you when you come home after a 4-5 day airline trip to a broken car or dishwasher and you switch bags and head off the the squadron to fly. If you are commuting to both chances are 99% you will leave once you make more money per day at your real job. Getting mobilized can really be a great experience or not so much. Understand reality that if you are and 0-3/0-4/0-5 with a clearance and good medical they still have jobs in the land of sand chosen just for you.
As Albie said never heard anybody say they wish they had left earlier.
One word on networking. Every single person you meet in the reserves (probably not a bad plan everywhere) is a potential networking opportunity. A guy i interviewed and hired at the squadron ended up walking my resume into a decision maker and helped get me my current job. A mechanic i had known years before in the squadron was sitting in the lobby of another interview. He had gotten out gone home to the guard in Ohio and was there for a "meeting". Didn't get that job so maybe he was a plant and i shouldn't have made him change that engine in the snow in McChord...A Senior Reservist i worked for on a project years ago was the first person i met when i walked in the interview site for my current job. He had driven me crazy with his pace of progress and caution to the point i almost exploded and quit the project. Luckily i had hit my **** button a lot and we ended up laughing about old times in the lobby. And got introduced all around before the interview. The Reserves is a small world. Make your enemies carefully.
-No better way to ease the transition to a new life than the reserves. As long as you are only commuting to one of those you can handle it for a while.
-Income protection both in your low pay first years and furlough protection.
-Retired pay and Tricare for Life is a big deal.
-No better or other way to control your life as a junior airline pilot than with reserve drilling.
-Have a job or not, no better place to network.
-The GI Bill.
-Squadron life. Wearing the bag and flying, going to lunch, hanging out with your old and new friends is gone once you leave. Airline flying is soulless for the most part, but you don't have to take it home or live it 24/7. Sort of a wash.
On the other hand you are still in the admin grind and exposed to the BS things that made you leave. It will NOT be a very good day for you when you come home after a 4-5 day airline trip to a broken car or dishwasher and you switch bags and head off the the squadron to fly. If you are commuting to both chances are 99% you will leave once you make more money per day at your real job. Getting mobilized can really be a great experience or not so much. Understand reality that if you are and 0-3/0-4/0-5 with a clearance and good medical they still have jobs in the land of sand chosen just for you.
As Albie said never heard anybody say they wish they had left earlier.
One word on networking. Every single person you meet in the reserves (probably not a bad plan everywhere) is a potential networking opportunity. A guy i interviewed and hired at the squadron ended up walking my resume into a decision maker and helped get me my current job. A mechanic i had known years before in the squadron was sitting in the lobby of another interview. He had gotten out gone home to the guard in Ohio and was there for a "meeting". Didn't get that job so maybe he was a plant and i shouldn't have made him change that engine in the snow in McChord...A Senior Reservist i worked for on a project years ago was the first person i met when i walked in the interview site for my current job. He had driven me crazy with his pace of progress and caution to the point i almost exploded and quit the project. Luckily i had hit my **** button a lot and we ended up laughing about old times in the lobby. And got introduced all around before the interview. The Reserves is a small world. Make your enemies carefully.
01-26-2016, 05:55 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 900
If you can make it work with the family, do it. Try not to commute to both jobs or it'll severely impact QOL. I'm a ANG full-timer that is holding out for a job with a locally commutable major airline so I'm 30-60 min drive from both jobs. I don't want to spend my days off traveling to either one and I can't tell you how much I cringe everytime my leadership hires someone who wants to live 1,000+ miles away and do the Guard thing because it ends up being the unit that gets the poop end of the stick from that individual.
Everyone has their own experiences and stories that drive their advice. I went from AD AF to being a full-timer in the ANG. I have no regrets, but I think I'd like this job better if I was a part-timer. I've had a lot of good times in the military, but it's lately felt more like an insurance policy and not a job I truly enjoy doing every day of my life anymore. It's exhausting. This isn't because of the mission and people, but more because of the assanine policies and guidance coming from above with no end in site. It seems like we continue to strive to make things harder for ourselves.
I'm past the point of no return though. With a substational amount of retirement points and a bit more than 6 years left, I can grab a decent retirement check when I turn 60 that should be enough to keep the lights on and put food on the table. By that time, all my kids will be long gone and hopefully in successful careers of their own.
Everyone has their own experiences and stories that drive their advice. I went from AD AF to being a full-timer in the ANG. I have no regrets, but I think I'd like this job better if I was a part-timer. I've had a lot of good times in the military, but it's lately felt more like an insurance policy and not a job I truly enjoy doing every day of my life anymore. It's exhausting. This isn't because of the mission and people, but more because of the assanine policies and guidance coming from above with no end in site. It seems like we continue to strive to make things harder for ourselves.
I'm past the point of no return though. With a substational amount of retirement points and a bit more than 6 years left, I can grab a decent retirement check when I turn 60 that should be enough to keep the lights on and put food on the table. By that time, all my kids will be long gone and hopefully in successful careers of their own.
01-26-2016, 06:08 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2012
Position: Babysitter
Posts: 975
Originally Posted by BDGERJMN
Tummy,
O-4 over 10 drill pay is $224.86/drill or $899.44/4 drills (drill weekend) per 2016 pay charts. So my math says max drill pay per day is $449.72 (without flight pay).
So your math is just a bit optimistic on the reserve side.
Bdger
O-4 over 10 drill pay is $224.86/drill or $899.44/4 drills (drill weekend) per 2016 pay charts. So my math says max drill pay per day is $449.72 (without flight pay).
So your math is just a bit optimistic on the reserve side.
Bdger
01-26-2016, 07:44 AM
#28
Get's Every Day Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,858
Originally Posted by WARich
I was going to say, I'm an O-4 over 18 and I don't even come close to $887.84 a day in the reserves......
01-26-2016, 12:09 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: A-300 F/O
Posts: 281
Originally Posted by TankerDriver
It's exhausting. This isn't because of the mission and people, but more because of the assanine policies and guidance coming from above with no end in site. It seems like we continue to strive to make things harder for ourselves.
01-26-2016, 12:30 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2012
Position: Babysitter
Posts: 975
Originally Posted by ExAF
No dog in this, but read it again...it was $887.84 a weekend and $449.72 a day for max drills. How does that stack up?
The reserves at the active duty unit I just left make $887.84 per day while drilling as an O-4 with over 10 years. The unit expects them to work 5 days per month (60 days per year) of which 48 are drill days and 12 are active duty for training. They don’t make double pay on active duty days, and they have to commute either to their reserve job or to their airline job.
$887.87 * 5 / 7 (commuting adjustment) = $634.17
(($634.17 / 2 * 12) + ($634.1"
Was the original quote that the previous poster and I were commenting on.
