Pilot shortage fallacy & separating vs retire
07-27-2016, 05:23 PM
#71
China Visa Applicant
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Midfield downwind
Posts: 1,919
Originally Posted by FlewNavy
Were the CJOs rescinded?
Courtesy of Albie on TPN:
Got a pirep from a new hire today at FedEx checking on his friend's application. Apparently, John Ryder expressed some frustration at folks adjusting their availability dates. I'm not trying to be anyone's dad here, or the constant complainer, but for those of you trying to "game" the system leaning forward here is what I recommend.
1. Look at your separation date/retirement date
2. Back up that date with whatever terminal leave you can get
3. Add any permissive TDY you can expect to get from your current unit
4. Add comp days if those can be included (if you still even have these...my last "comp" days were circa 1998)
5. Put THAT date down.
I know its unsettling to drop papers and not have a job waiting. I'm sorry. I don't make the rules. Worst case is you can get snapped up by a regional, but you'll get a flying job. Its much better than the alternative.
Bottom line--if you "fudge" those dates you may get a sharp bite in the ass when a company calls you because they just doubled class sizes (FedEx) or had someone fall out and slot opened (saw this at UAL and Delta). Lying about your date may get your offer rescinded. It will certainly get you off on the wrong foot with the company if they hire you anyway. It will also make it harder for your squadron mates and will keep you from sponsoring or helping someone else.
TPN, Emerald Coast, RST, Mil2ATP, and a host of other folks want you to get hired. We are all here to help you. We cannot do anything, however, when you frag yourself with your own stupidity and greed. I'm not here to carry any HR person's water, but the fact is if you burn them by lying and get caught you are left pretty much naked, all alone, hoping for mercy. They are getting ****ed, and someone is going to get crushed. Don't let that be you. There is enough hiring going on that missing a class or two won't shatter your career earning potential or lock you out of a good opportunity. Most of you have been doing things the right way for years. Please don't change that just because you are changing jobs.
1. Look at your separation date/retirement date
2. Back up that date with whatever terminal leave you can get
3. Add any permissive TDY you can expect to get from your current unit
4. Add comp days if those can be included (if you still even have these...my last "comp" days were circa 1998)
5. Put THAT date down.
I know its unsettling to drop papers and not have a job waiting. I'm sorry. I don't make the rules. Worst case is you can get snapped up by a regional, but you'll get a flying job. Its much better than the alternative.
Bottom line--if you "fudge" those dates you may get a sharp bite in the ass when a company calls you because they just doubled class sizes (FedEx) or had someone fall out and slot opened (saw this at UAL and Delta). Lying about your date may get your offer rescinded. It will certainly get you off on the wrong foot with the company if they hire you anyway. It will also make it harder for your squadron mates and will keep you from sponsoring or helping someone else.
TPN, Emerald Coast, RST, Mil2ATP, and a host of other folks want you to get hired. We are all here to help you. We cannot do anything, however, when you frag yourself with your own stupidity and greed. I'm not here to carry any HR person's water, but the fact is if you burn them by lying and get caught you are left pretty much naked, all alone, hoping for mercy. They are getting ****ed, and someone is going to get crushed. Don't let that be you. There is enough hiring going on that missing a class or two won't shatter your career earning potential or lock you out of a good opportunity. Most of you have been doing things the right way for years. Please don't change that just because you are changing jobs.
07-27-2016, 07:35 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Update to that is I am hearing from some Air Force types that going to training while on permissive TDY is not allowed, and even that some terminal leave is getting denied. Sounds like Big Blue is getting a case of the ass too.
Bottom line is don't play games with your availability. Since I wrote that stuff that Hacker quoted Delta did in fact rescind an offer to a guy. Long story and there were complications, and elaborating won't help him have another shot...so I'll just leave it here:
1. Provide a date you can be in class, ready to rock, with no complications.
2. Do not ask for the ability to leave class to fulfill any military out processing issues, etc. Show up ready for class.
3. If you cannot comply with 1 and 2 above, they will scrub your app looking for anything to disqualify you and show you the door.
We all preach the importance of seniority, but more important than your seniority number is getting on the roster and staying on the roster. Give them a date you can be there and STAY there and none of these warnings will apply to you.
Bottom line is don't play games with your availability. Since I wrote that stuff that Hacker quoted Delta did in fact rescind an offer to a guy. Long story and there were complications, and elaborating won't help him have another shot...so I'll just leave it here:
1. Provide a date you can be in class, ready to rock, with no complications.
2. Do not ask for the ability to leave class to fulfill any military out processing issues, etc. Show up ready for class.
3. If you cannot comply with 1 and 2 above, they will scrub your app looking for anything to disqualify you and show you the door.
We all preach the importance of seniority, but more important than your seniority number is getting on the roster and staying on the roster. Give them a date you can be there and STAY there and none of these warnings will apply to you.
07-28-2016, 05:41 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Hates Commuting
Posts: 888
Originally Posted by Albief15
Delta did in fact rescind an offer to a guy. Long story and there were complications, and elaborating won't help him have another shot...so I'll just leave it here:
1. Provide a date you can be in class, ready to rock, with no complications.
2. Do not ask for the ability to leave class to fulfill any military out processing issues, etc. Show up ready for class.
3. If you cannot comply with 1 and 2 above, they will scrub your app looking for anything to disqualify you and show you the door.
1. Provide a date you can be in class, ready to rock, with no complications.
2. Do not ask for the ability to leave class to fulfill any military out processing issues, etc. Show up ready for class.
3. If you cannot comply with 1 and 2 above, they will scrub your app looking for anything to disqualify you and show you the door.
Wow. Interesting (and, ouch!). Does the bolded part imply that he wasn't (officially) shown the door for the fudging on his dates, but rather for something amiss on his app? Was that "something" a piece they had overlooked initially--which begs the follow-on question, deliberately so??
I don't want any personally identifiable information, but I am curious to know more. Can you provide further detail without compromising the individual (or yourself)?
07-28-2016, 01:10 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,192
Originally Posted by Jughead135
Wow. Interesting (and, ouch!). Does the bolded part imply that he wasn't (officially) shown the door for the fudging on his dates, but rather for something amiss on his app? Was that "something" a piece they had overlooked initially--which begs the follow-on question, deliberately so??
I don't want any personally identifiable information, but I am curious to know more. Can you provide further detail without compromising the individual (or yourself)?
I don't want any personally identifiable information, but I am curious to know more. Can you provide further detail without compromising the individual (or yourself)?
07-29-2016, 07:39 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Position: They have more than one?
Posts: 167
Originally Posted by Grumble
Be honest and don't try and game the system you should be alright. Separation date minus any leave you have. If AFPC decides to corn hole you you have an easy position to say "here's, my separation orders, here's my LES with the leave available... They denied my leave." Understandable circumstance, out of your control. Anything else looks like shady gamesmanship.
So now we need to take an actual date we can legally de-commit from our obligation to AD and either say I'm avail now, or lie about days in the future....this is getting out of control
07-29-2016, 07:49 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,898
Originally Posted by TSRAGR
Here's the rub. So what? If I potentially have a sep date and I backed my date up with X amount of "legal leave", there is still nothing from denying the job.
So now we need to take an actual date we can legally de-commit from our obligation to AD and either say I'm avail now, or lie about days in the future....this is getting out of control
So now we need to take an actual date we can legally de-commit from our obligation to AD and either say I'm avail now, or lie about days in the future....this is getting out of control
07-29-2016, 03:43 PM
#77
China Visa Applicant
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Midfield downwind
Posts: 1,919
How tough is it to figure out what day you're available to start a new job?
Seriously, dudes. It isn't difficult. Many have done it before, many will do it after. We'd all love to be able to magically schedule our separation date from Uncle Sam to be the day before we start newhire class with our new airline, but that's just not realistic. If that means that you have to put a stake in the ground for a separation date first, before you have any idea if you even have to job. then that's what's required.
I had apps in for months/years when I got to the point that I had to make a decision with Big Blue. I established a date with no interview, no job offer waiting, because that's what I had to do.
When in doubt, make the conservative call. Your dream job may depend on it.
Seriously, dudes. It isn't difficult. Many have done it before, many will do it after. We'd all love to be able to magically schedule our separation date from Uncle Sam to be the day before we start newhire class with our new airline, but that's just not realistic. If that means that you have to put a stake in the ground for a separation date first, before you have any idea if you even have to job. then that's what's required.
I had apps in for months/years when I got to the point that I had to make a decision with Big Blue. I established a date with no interview, no job offer waiting, because that's what I had to do.
When in doubt, make the conservative call. Your dream job may depend on it.
07-30-2016, 06:14 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 737
Posts: 1,061
If I had a nickel for every left seater I've flown with who failed to get their mil retirement....
It's really a gamble but think too of how much that 20 year AD retirement is worth. You're talking a couple million dollars if you live til you're 80 not counting medical benefits.
Tough call, but then again I started at a major 3+ years ago while on terminal leave. But seriously, every CA I've flown with who didn't get an AD or Guard/Reserve retirement regrets it....to a man.
It's really a gamble but think too of how much that 20 year AD retirement is worth. You're talking a couple million dollars if you live til you're 80 not counting medical benefits.
Tough call, but then again I started at a major 3+ years ago while on terminal leave. But seriously, every CA I've flown with who didn't get an AD or Guard/Reserve retirement regrets it....to a man.
07-30-2016, 06:19 AM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 282
Originally Posted by Hilltopper89
If I had a nickel for every left seater I've flown with who failed to get their mil retirement....
It's really a gamble but think too of how much that 20 year AD retirement is worth. You're talking a couple million dollars if you live til you're 80 not counting medical benefits.
Tough call, but then again I started at a major 3+ years ago while on terminal leave. But seriously, every CA I've flown with who didn't get an AD or Guard/Reserve retirement regrets it....to a man.
It's really a gamble but think too of how much that 20 year AD retirement is worth. You're talking a couple million dollars if you live til you're 80 not counting medical benefits.
Tough call, but then again I started at a major 3+ years ago while on terminal leave. But seriously, every CA I've flown with who didn't get an AD or Guard/Reserve retirement regrets it....to a man.
07-30-2016, 06:25 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 737
Posts: 1,061
Originally Posted by kme9418
Give me a break. Of course everyone wishes they had the income/benefits of a 20 year Active Duty retirement. For many, the price to pay in QOL for staying is not worth any amount of money. Everything is a tradeoff. The Guard/Reserve 20 is a lot easier to swallow.
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