Base Aero Clubs
07-31-2016, 07:57 AM
#1
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Base Aero Clubs
It's come to my attention that many of the base Aero Clubs have closed. Does anyone know the reason(s) for this? Is some of it due to BRAC, an Aero Club possibly went the way of the base? Is there anything practical that can be done to reestablish this asset? These were also a great deal for any Mil folks and especially enlisted personnel. Seems somewhat of a shame. Any input or ideas?
07-31-2016, 08:24 AM
#2
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I've observed over the years that increasing rules, regs, and oversight have caused some clubs to decamp, drop the military affiliation, and move off base. Often cheaper and simpler to operate at the local GA patch in CONUS. This would probably only make sense if the core cadre of the club is local civilians/reservists.
Also the typical millennial would probably rather dick around with his ipad in the air conditioned comfort of his dorm-style barracks than actually go outside and do something which might be loud, dangerous, or even uncomfortable.
Also the typical millennial would probably rather dick around with his ipad in the air conditioned comfort of his dorm-style barracks than actually go outside and do something which might be loud, dangerous, or even uncomfortable.
07-31-2016, 08:57 AM
#4
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Originally Posted by Yoda2
It's come to my attention that many of the base Aero Clubs have closed. Does anyone know the reason(s) for this? Is some of it due to BRAC, an Aero Club possibly went the way of the base? Is there anything practical that can be done to reestablish this asset? These were also a great deal for any Mil folks and especially enlisted personnel. Seems somewhat of a shame. Any input or ideas?
07-31-2016, 09:21 AM
#5
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I'm not surprised at any of this... I had thought any and all of the points mentioned might have been a factor. Nevertheless, disheartening. I used to love to fly the T34's as a kid. I would really like to see a resurgence/revitalization of these clubs. They would be of great benefit, especially to our enlisted troops. I'm also exploring volunteer opportunities for my old age... PS, I'm not so sure how I would do with drones though. I've crashed every RC model plane I ever tried to fly. Manned aircraft no issue, though I could probably find a way to wreck an RC Tortoise...
08-01-2016, 03:21 PM
#6
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Originally Posted by Yoda2
I'm not surprised at any of this... I had thought any and all of the points mentioned might have been a factor. Nevertheless, disheartening. I used to love to fly the T34's as a kid. I would really like to see a resurgence/revitalization of these clubs. They would be of great benefit, especially to our enlisted troops. I'm also exploring volunteer opportunities for my old age... PS, I'm not so sure how I would do with drones though. I've crashed every RC model plane I ever tried to fly. Manned aircraft no issue, though I could probably find a way to wreck an RC Tortoise...
08-01-2016, 10:05 PM
#7
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Every experience I had with aero clubs was they were designed to keep Air Force pilots from being able to rent/use their airplanes without a level of ass pain that mirrored about anything MWR touched. (The Air Force could find a way to make sex miserable. "Complete this CBT. Watch this video. Demonstrate the proper technique on this mannequin, with the proper prophylactic device installs. To use the device properly, first unroll the device, tip facing you.....etc etc etc")
I eventually cracked the wall and rented at Tyndall for a few years. Mandatory safety meetings, review of my flight plan by an on duty person, etc etc ignored the fact I was a not only a rated F-15 IP but also a CFI with 1000 hours of GA experience. My impression of most aero clubs was they were designed as a place to give WSOs and Navs a little bit of power and prestige.
Now--I understand GA can bite you. I understand better than most, as I grew up in it. Taking a fighter guy and dumping him into a skyhawk with a cursory one hour checkout is not what I recommend, nor what I sought. At the same time, the amount of BS required to rent, fly, and use a plane on base quickly sucked the joy out of the process. Add the fact our group routinely would yank the 210 (when I scheduled it for a XC) and replace it with a sluggish 172 for any number of reasons (usually for someone's training) and the attitude of "I was lucky to get access to these planes at all..." and I gave it up after 2 years. (Worst example--Wing leadership wanted me to fly Brig Gen Leaf--Operation Deny Fiight Bigwig--from a speaking engagement at Tyndall up to Maxwell for a meeting. They paid for trip so General could do our speaking engagement then make another one that same afternoon. I was asked to do it as they knew I was a GA guy and fairly safe/competent in that arena. The aero club manager swapped the 210 for a skyhawk on me with zero advance warning. Instead of a 45-50 minute flight our guest general got to putter along for almost 2 hours up to Montgomery in a ratted out skyhawk. MWR answer was "someone else had priority..." Gen Leaf enjoyed the trip, and I enjoyed his company, but it showed the pure disconnect between MWR leadership and the Wing. They routinely bit the hands that would have been their biggest advocate--the Wing flying operation and the pilots who worked there.)
Silver lining to the story was I quit flying GA until I could afford my own plane. Even now--years later--when I open the door to MY hangar and pull out MY plane on MY schedule, it feels damn good.
The way to make an aero club work IMHO is put it in the hands of the OG, and make it an "airmanship" opportunity for interested pilots like ACE was back in SAC. Continue to offer the flight training and options to the non-pilots and encourage folks to get involved. Put a TSGT with a CFI or a Nav or WSO in charge, however, and you will end up with a Hitler youth camp of pilot haters, and they will do their damndest to drive away the potential customers with the most money, interest, and abilities. The AF leadership didn't kill aeroclubs....stupid aeroclub managers and policies did them in.
I eventually cracked the wall and rented at Tyndall for a few years. Mandatory safety meetings, review of my flight plan by an on duty person, etc etc ignored the fact I was a not only a rated F-15 IP but also a CFI with 1000 hours of GA experience. My impression of most aero clubs was they were designed as a place to give WSOs and Navs a little bit of power and prestige.
Now--I understand GA can bite you. I understand better than most, as I grew up in it. Taking a fighter guy and dumping him into a skyhawk with a cursory one hour checkout is not what I recommend, nor what I sought. At the same time, the amount of BS required to rent, fly, and use a plane on base quickly sucked the joy out of the process. Add the fact our group routinely would yank the 210 (when I scheduled it for a XC) and replace it with a sluggish 172 for any number of reasons (usually for someone's training) and the attitude of "I was lucky to get access to these planes at all..." and I gave it up after 2 years. (Worst example--Wing leadership wanted me to fly Brig Gen Leaf--Operation Deny Fiight Bigwig--from a speaking engagement at Tyndall up to Maxwell for a meeting. They paid for trip so General could do our speaking engagement then make another one that same afternoon. I was asked to do it as they knew I was a GA guy and fairly safe/competent in that arena. The aero club manager swapped the 210 for a skyhawk on me with zero advance warning. Instead of a 45-50 minute flight our guest general got to putter along for almost 2 hours up to Montgomery in a ratted out skyhawk. MWR answer was "someone else had priority..." Gen Leaf enjoyed the trip, and I enjoyed his company, but it showed the pure disconnect between MWR leadership and the Wing. They routinely bit the hands that would have been their biggest advocate--the Wing flying operation and the pilots who worked there.)
Silver lining to the story was I quit flying GA until I could afford my own plane. Even now--years later--when I open the door to MY hangar and pull out MY plane on MY schedule, it feels damn good.
The way to make an aero club work IMHO is put it in the hands of the OG, and make it an "airmanship" opportunity for interested pilots like ACE was back in SAC. Continue to offer the flight training and options to the non-pilots and encourage folks to get involved. Put a TSGT with a CFI or a Nav or WSO in charge, however, and you will end up with a Hitler youth camp of pilot haters, and they will do their damndest to drive away the potential customers with the most money, interest, and abilities. The AF leadership didn't kill aeroclubs....stupid aeroclub managers and policies did them in.
08-02-2016, 06:02 AM
#8
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Shack, Albie.
When I was a 2Lt, a group of us wondered if we could get one started.
Looked into the regs, and it seemed pretty straightforward.
I found a DoD reg that said "Surplus DoD aircraft at AMARC are authorized for use in aero clubs....." We were pretty fired up....it meant DoD civil aircraft could be released to clubs at no cost.
Called AMARC and asked how many T-34A and Bs were there. About 100, as I recall.
I drafted the requisite letter and sent it to the Navy. We were requesting 1-2 airplanes, depending on how much business we got.
After many weeks, I got a one-sentence letter back saying "T-34 aircraft in storage are required to support the active fleet."
Even in 1984 this was BS: I've talke to maintainers, and there are almost no interchangeable parts from an A or B-model to a T-34C. Example: even though they look the same, the rudder, elevator, and ailerons are heavier on the C for higher speeds.
They just didn't want to be bothered.
It's not just a job: it's an adventure.
When I was a 2Lt, a group of us wondered if we could get one started.
Looked into the regs, and it seemed pretty straightforward.
I found a DoD reg that said "Surplus DoD aircraft at AMARC are authorized for use in aero clubs....." We were pretty fired up....it meant DoD civil aircraft could be released to clubs at no cost.
Called AMARC and asked how many T-34A and Bs were there. About 100, as I recall.
I drafted the requisite letter and sent it to the Navy. We were requesting 1-2 airplanes, depending on how much business we got.
After many weeks, I got a one-sentence letter back saying "T-34 aircraft in storage are required to support the active fleet."
Even in 1984 this was BS: I've talke to maintainers, and there are almost no interchangeable parts from an A or B-model to a T-34C. Example: even though they look the same, the rudder, elevator, and ailerons are heavier on the C for higher speeds.
They just didn't want to be bothered.
It's not just a job: it's an adventure.
08-02-2016, 06:23 AM
#9
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Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,182
What Albie said. MWR mismanagement didn't help any of the clubs either.
I was constantly amazed at the lack of GA interest there was in the fighter community. Landed at FSM one day with all 12 of our squadrons jets. Some guy with a GORGEOUS Lancair wanted to chat, show off his airplane. Everyone but me could've cared less.
I was constantly amazed at the lack of GA interest there was in the fighter community. Landed at FSM one day with all 12 of our squadrons jets. Some guy with a GORGEOUS Lancair wanted to chat, show off his airplane. Everyone but me could've cared less.
08-02-2016, 06:41 AM
#10
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Posts: 489
I remember the T-34's being a popular plane to rent at the North Island Aero Club, - it was a fantastic plane to fly, me coming from a non-military flight training pipeline, - but the few T-34s we had got involved in some crashes and a few hull losses, and then the wing spar issue I think grounded the T-34s after that at the North Island club.
I have no idea whether the T-34s ever came back or if they developed a fix for the wing spar issue.
But I'm not surprised that the aero clubs have been dying off. I found the ones I was a member of (Kadena, Norfolk, and North Island) were especially invaluable early in my flight experience since I was not a military aviator.
All the extra requirements at the military aero clubs just made it easier to go out into the local GA flight community to go fly (especially in San Diego, where I just went over to Montgomery) and never come back.
I have no idea whether the T-34s ever came back or if they developed a fix for the wing spar issue.
But I'm not surprised that the aero clubs have been dying off. I found the ones I was a member of (Kadena, Norfolk, and North Island) were especially invaluable early in my flight experience since I was not a military aviator.
All the extra requirements at the military aero clubs just made it easier to go out into the local GA flight community to go fly (especially in San Diego, where I just went over to Montgomery) and never come back.
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