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Pension confusion

Old 09-02-2016, 05:40 PM
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Default Pension confusion

Retiring military guy here. I am looking for the basics on pension plans for guys joining the majors with only 18-20 years of flying left before I turn 65. Do I miss any significant benefits if I join up with less than 20 full years of availability? I'm an F-15 guy with only 1400+ raw hours (have my ATP because I added 0.2/sortie in my personal logbook...FAA FSDO accepted), so I may take another flying assignment to get above 1500, but some assignments would prevent me from flying 20 full years with the airlines. Right now I'm leaning towards trying to get a T-38 gig to get the most hours, and retire just in time to salvage 20 years with the airlines. But I'm wanting to know how big of a deal it would be to take a 3 year assignment overseas = being a year or two later to the airlines. I understand the loss of seniority and total career pay, but I'm focused on family QOL and I'd really rather not do the regional tour. Thoughts? Recommendations? Thanks!
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Old 09-02-2016, 05:48 PM
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I think you need 20 years at United to get free passes for travel...but retirees are at the near-bottom for boarding priority, anyway.

As far as a defined "pension," I don't know of any airline that still has one (not saying they don't; I just don't know of them. Maybe FedEx?).

If you retire from an airline, your pension is likely your 401k, and whatever you saved while working there. Last year we were told in a company-wide CRM class that a guy was hired at 61.
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Old 09-02-2016, 06:49 PM
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APC on their airline profiles gives you a breakdown of each Airlines retirement benefits.

A plan - Traditional defined benefit plan. FDX will pay 2% times Years of Service (YOS) (Max 25 Years) times average of your high 5 (Max of 260k). So a top defined benefit of 130k. 18 YOS could get you about 94k for life. This benefit may or may not get better. In 20 years what will 94k be worth? UPS has a different scheme to get you similar numbers at 30 years. At 18 YOS UPS would get you about 75k.

B Plan. Max of about 20 (FDX) to 30k (ups) invested per year in your name funded by the company. Contributions are a percentage of pay, FDX's will be 9%, UPS will be 12 or 14%. Again this is in addition to your normal pay and is not reported as income.

Most companies have 401ks where you put money aside, after a couple of years, particularly with a mil retirement, it is easy to max this out. FDX matches only $500 a year.

Sick leave buy back. This is paid to those who don't use their sick days every year. At FDX this is 72 hours a year (about a month of flying). once your sick bank hits 650 hours or so, FDX will buy any extra hours at the end of the year and put it in your B Fund bank. If your b fund bank is maxed out you get the cash.

The 401k and Bfund contributions are currently limited to about $55k total per year by the IRS.

Bottomline, the sooner you start your second career the better your retirement will be when you hit 65. Regardless of who you go with. I am no expert but you should have the hours to be competitive now. Pay an expert and take the first job at United, Delta, American, SW, UPS, Alaska, or Fedex you get offered and start building retirement.
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Old 09-02-2016, 07:02 PM
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Unless you go to Fedex or UPS.... There is no pension. For those that haven't been paying attention the last 15 years, pensions have a huge target on them and I wouldn't expect the few remaining to be there in another 15-20 years.

Adding .2 per sortie is a pretty ballsy move. How'd you come up with that? Why not .1 or .3? Just because one fed at one FSDO said he was okay with it doesn't make it so. I'm aware of no FAR that allows this. Especially if they didn't put it in writing. DO NOT put anything on an application over what's in your official USAF records. If a particular airline wants to add their own correction that's fine but you're playing with fire.
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Old 09-02-2016, 07:18 PM
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IIRC Air Force rules allow you to add 0.1 for taxi-out and 0.1 for taxi-in. Or is it you can add 0.3 total? I forgot.

Optional; not required. I added some early in my career; later, I didn't.

So, if it was added into his AF records, he's good.....no conflict for an application.

JD: if it ISN'T in your AF records, make it so. You can make changes to records, but it is laborious. Talk to the Flight Records folks.
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:57 PM
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UAL T-38 Phlyer,

I added the 0.2 only to my personal logbook based on old IP gouge, airline hiring practices, and FAA rules 18-20 years ago. Today the Air Force regs allow only takeoff to landing +5 minutes, which is what my records reflect. If you know of an additional IIRC factor, I'd love to know what it is. But probably not worth the Records change nightmare I've heard about. I'm soooo close....just bad timing being just shy at the end of my current assignment and eligible to retire. First-world problems!

FDXLAG,

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks man! I've hired several companies to review my apps (Checked and Set), co-author my resume (Corporate & Career Takeoff), and conduct interview prep (Emerald Coast Interview Consulting). I'm just completely Airline-retirement ignorant. I've got pretty good insider advice that says the HR teams are not hiring sub-1500. The min is slightly above that today, but rumors are they will all drop to 1500 in 2017. At least that's what my "sources" are telling me. I just want to be above the bar when it hits.

Grumble,

Copy all. I was 100% honest with my personal logbook and the FSDO Examiner. So, I don't think I am playing with fire there. If he was wrong and I get audited, I'll gladly go back to a Restricted ATP until I get 1500. I'm not hiding anything. I can't get hired until then anyway, so it really doesn't change my situation. And I would never put anything but my raw military record flight hours on an airline apps, since they have their own military conversion factor that they use. This is why I asked my question in the first place. I need another assignment to get over the 1500 hours which reduces the time I can give to my next employer. I just want to know how much difference a year or two makes. Appreciate your help. Cheers.
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Old 09-02-2016, 11:37 PM
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JD Fly,
You stated that you have your ATP. You are good to go. If you have your 20 years military time and can retire with an active duty pension then pull the handles and bailout.
All of the airlines generally allow a 0.3 hour add per sortie in computing total flight time. Also, if you have an ATP then the FAA has said you have 1500 hours so you are good to go. I would start putting my apps out right away to all of the Majors and also to FEDEX and UPS.
Delaying your airline start time to stay in the military a few more years is financially irresponsible if you can retire now and have the ATP already.
The majors are hiring big time and delaying 3 years will put 2,000-3,000 guys ahead of you at most of the majors.
Also, you'll never recoup the money lost by staying for a few more years.
I did 23 years active and went to the airlines 5 years ago -- best decision ever. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk.....
Best wishes and thanks for your service

P.S. -- I assume you are in an active flying assignment and are currently flying -- most airlines will want some kind of recency of experience.
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Old 09-03-2016, 01:14 AM
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Thunder1,

Back at you brother...thanks for your 23 years. Unfortunately, I've talked directly to (Delta) or indirectly to (others airlines through a former HR team lead that still knows the top hiring guys for each Major airline by first name), and they all say that they are not hiring sub-1500 raw hours. Some even want it to be all PIC (I have 1100 in the Eagle). Some (Delta) say they will never hire sub-1500. While I concur with you that if I were able to get an interview, my ATP, current FAA Class I medical, and the fact that I'm current--actively flying the F-15, all would mean I'm GTG. BUT, the Big 6 all use computer algorithms to pull applications, score them, and call out for interviews. I've had my apps published for six months, and all the companies I've hired to get my paperwork ready say my applications are perfect, my resume is very strong, and like you said...everyone is hiring like wild fire. I haven't heard a peep. It actually would be more financially irresponsible for me to bailout without a job offer, and just say goodbye to the easiest way for me to get the precious few hours I really need. Copy...I understand the seniority and financial loss, but best case I get 200 hours flying the T-38 and retire 1 year later...putting me at just over 21. If you still disagree, let me know and we can take it offline. I certainly admit that I don't know everything. And if you have better SA than I do after all the money I've spent prepping, time I've spent getting my paperwork perfect, and discussions I've had with industry experts....I'm all ears. I would LOVE to transition sooner rather than later. The only caveat I will add is that I'm not available until December and some companies don't give invites until much closer to availability dates. I hear United will start interviewing again in October. I think they would be my best shot at getting hired sub-1500, based on my gouge. BUT, I have to decide retire vs. assignment in October. If they wait to call me in November I would have already committed to another year in the AF. If I punch, and they don't call, I may run for Idiot-of-the Year. Some experienced friends say the number of applicants the companies are dealing with may mean I sit around for 6-9 months just waiting for my call any way. Finally, I'm stationed in Okinawa, and everything is way easier for me if I can retire from the US. Love to discuss further if you think you can help me...
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Old 09-03-2016, 02:33 AM
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JD:

Sorry, you're right....0.1 per. Too many years gone by!
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JDfly View Post
Thunder1,

Back at you brother...thanks for your 23 years. Unfortunately, I've talked directly to (Delta) or indirectly to (others airlines through a former HR team lead that still knows the top hiring guys for each Major airline by first name), and they all say that they are not hiring sub-1500 raw hours. Some even want it to be all PIC (I have 1100 in the Eagle). Some (Delta) say they will never hire sub-1500. While I concur with you that if I were able to get an interview, my ATP, current FAA Class I medical, and the fact that I'm current--actively flying the F-15, all would mean I'm GTG. BUT, the Big 6 all use computer algorithms to pull applications, score them, and call out for interviews. I've had my apps published for six months, and all the companies I've hired to get my paperwork ready say my applications are perfect, my resume is very strong, and like you said...everyone is hiring like wild fire. I haven't heard a peep. It actually would be more financially irresponsible for me to bailout without a job offer, and just say goodbye to the easiest way for me to get the precious few hours I really need. Copy...I understand the seniority and financial loss, but best case I get 200 hours flying the T-38 and retire 1 year later...putting me at just over 21. If you still disagree, let me know and we can take it offline. I certainly admit that I don't know everything. And if you have better SA than I do after all the money I've spent prepping, time I've spent getting my paperwork perfect, and discussions I've had with industry experts....I'm all ears. I would LOVE to transition sooner rather than later. The only caveat I will add is that I'm not available until December and some companies don't give invites until much closer to availability dates. I hear United will start interviewing again in October. I think they would be my best shot at getting hired sub-1500, based on my gouge. BUT, I have to decide retire vs. assignment in October. If they wait to call me in November I would have already committed to another year in the AF. If I punch, and they don't call, I may run for Idiot-of-the Year. Some experienced friends say the number of applicants the companies are dealing with may mean I sit around for 6-9 months just waiting for my call any way. Finally, I'm stationed in Okinawa, and everything is way easier for me if I can retire from the US. Love to discuss further if you think you can help me...
There's a pretty common trend with separating military guys to have a phobia of separating/retiring without a job lined up to start the next day...

IF you can retire at the end of this tour why don't you? You'll have a pension and will be able to build your resume in another flying job (ISR or regionals) where you'll fly more than 200hrs/ year...

If you're not ready to leave the Airforce that's one thing, if you are then unless this next job provides a different checked box on the resume, why are you staying?

Staying to retire CONUS because it's easier is a valid reason. Staying because you like it is a valid reason. Staying for a promotion or a big ticket job is a valid reason.

Staying so you can get 200 more hours isn't a valid reason IMO. You can get 200 more hours literally anywhere.
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