timebuilding
10-10-2005, 06:52 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Glass
Posts: 254
timebuilding
been in these forums a lot the past couple days.. started a war in one of them, but now looking for a little assistance..as most of you guys have read, im working on some timebuilding on my way up to a commercial ticket.. intention is to get my comms, then multi instrument, and then go to Ari-Ben aviation in Florida for 100 hrs in a Dutchess for about $7K... $7K is a lot of spend, but my thinking is where else can i get twin time for 70 bucks an hour..
my question is this: does anyone here on APC either own an aircraft or know anyone kind enough to let someone sit right seat on a trip in either a complex single (mooney, arrow, etc.) or multiengine in the central NJ (my home) or northeastern connecticut (school) areas? i am trying to find the most efficient way to get all this done without burning my pockets toooo much... all advice is welcome.. thank you
my question is this: does anyone here on APC either own an aircraft or know anyone kind enough to let someone sit right seat on a trip in either a complex single (mooney, arrow, etc.) or multiengine in the central NJ (my home) or northeastern connecticut (school) areas? i am trying to find the most efficient way to get all this done without burning my pockets toooo much... all advice is welcome.. thank you
10-10-2005, 07:36 PM
#2
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
Originally Posted by UConnQB14
my question is this: does anyone here on APC either own an aircraft or know anyone kind enough to let someone sit right seat on a trip in either a complex single (mooney, arrow, etc.) or multiengine in the central NJ (my home) or northeastern connecticut (school) areas? i am trying to find the most efficient way to get all this done without burning my pockets toooo much... all advice is welcome.. thank you
Try looking around TTN at night and see what check haulers are flying in, than ask the pilot if you can ride with them. Make sure you check to see when he's coming back
BTW are you near RBV?? I live in the area, I couldn't afford to now on a RJ Capts pay 
Good luck
10-11-2005, 04:23 AM
#3
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Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: CRJ-900 FO, Supra left seat
Posts: 303
Be careful of what airplanes you fly..... there are examiners that refuse to fly some aircraft. I refuse to mention flight school names, but let's be honest with ourselves and note safety versus prices.
Jason
Jason
Last edited by TheProfessionalPilot; 10-11-2005 at 04:38 AM.
10-11-2005, 04:52 AM
#4
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Glass
Posts: 254
seneca/dutchess
i have heard of some pilots complain that the dutchess doesnt climb on one engine, which obviously isnt good...
what are the aircraft you are speaking of?
i have looked into timebuilding with the dutchess at Ari-Ben in Florida and then looked at a Seneca a little closer to home..
please advise
what are the aircraft you are speaking of?
i have looked into timebuilding with the dutchess at Ari-Ben in Florida and then looked at a Seneca a little closer to home..
please advise
10-11-2005, 05:30 AM
#5
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Investors
UConn,
Consider placing an AD and building a group of investors. You could buy a plane and fly it for cost. I did just that years ago. Three of us bought an Apache and put several hundred hours on it for cheap cheap. In the end our costs were around $25/hour. I even broke even since we sold time in it. I was the only MEI at the time.
I wouldn't worry about single engine climb performance. Most piston twins can't really climb on one engine when fully loaded. Even turbine airliners struggle on one when fully loaded. Most of the time when you are training the plane only has two dudes and half tanks, so you have performance to spare. The bottom line still is that you are four times more likely to die from an engine loss in a twin over a single. All of them are death traps.
SkyHigh
Consider placing an AD and building a group of investors. You could buy a plane and fly it for cost. I did just that years ago. Three of us bought an Apache and put several hundred hours on it for cheap cheap. In the end our costs were around $25/hour. I even broke even since we sold time in it. I was the only MEI at the time.
I wouldn't worry about single engine climb performance. Most piston twins can't really climb on one engine when fully loaded. Even turbine airliners struggle on one when fully loaded. Most of the time when you are training the plane only has two dudes and half tanks, so you have performance to spare. The bottom line still is that you are four times more likely to die from an engine loss in a twin over a single. All of them are death traps.
SkyHigh
10-11-2005, 05:38 AM
#6
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Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
loss rates in twins
Skyhigh,
For the novice with no twin experience / knowledge...Why the high death / loss rate w/ engine failure in a twin? Lack of training / people getting in over their head? Just curious...
QB,
Check on-line for c152 for sale..I saw one a few weeks ago for less than 20K...
V/r,
LA
For the novice with no twin experience / knowledge...Why the high death / loss rate w/ engine failure in a twin? Lack of training / people getting in over their head? Just curious...
QB,
Check on-line for c152 for sale..I saw one a few weeks ago for less than 20K...
V/r,
LA
10-11-2005, 07:03 AM
#7
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Glass
Posts: 254
placing an ad
i didnt see who it was that said to buy an aircraft and then rent it out etc... the first problem with that is that im only 21 years old and i dont nearly have the money to just up and go buy a plane, despite my desire to... secondly, in my neck of the woods, not many people are interested in the insurance on the plane, let alone finding the pilots that would want to go in on such a project... i want to purchase a dutchess from controller.com for around 120K, but to make it reasonable for those involved, i would need to get around 10-12 guys just for the aircraft, let alone the fuel and maintenance costs.. maintenance alone if i were to rent the plane out would include the 100-hour and an annual, so it gets pricey in the end...
the intention of my original post was to see if anyone already had a situation like the one you said to start myself.. i would join their group and pay for the hours as if i were renting the plane...
thanks
the intention of my original post was to see if anyone already had a situation like the one you said to start myself.. i would join their group and pay for the hours as if i were renting the plane...
thanks
10-11-2005, 10:27 AM
#8
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Apache
UConn,
You can still buy an Apache for 35-50K. If four of you go in on it that would bring the price down. The Apache can get an auto gas STC if you stick with 160 HP engines. Don't get insurance. You probably can't get it anyway with low time. Another option is to buy the time from Alpine Air or from of the other time selling companies. I am sure that with the contacts that you are making at the gas pump that before you know it locals will be offering to take you along or asking if you wouldn't mind being a co-pilot on the citation since the regular guy is sick, opportunities like that will come along.
SkyHigh
You can still buy an Apache for 35-50K. If four of you go in on it that would bring the price down. The Apache can get an auto gas STC if you stick with 160 HP engines. Don't get insurance. You probably can't get it anyway with low time. Another option is to buy the time from Alpine Air or from of the other time selling companies. I am sure that with the contacts that you are making at the gas pump that before you know it locals will be offering to take you along or asking if you wouldn't mind being a co-pilot on the citation since the regular guy is sick, opportunities like that will come along.
SkyHigh
10-11-2005, 01:36 PM
#9
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Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: CRJ-900 FO, Supra left seat
Posts: 303
Aztec/Apache
We have an Aztec here that burns about 21 gph in cruise if you baby it... but if you pull the throttles back even further then you really really burn less fuel. We have investors in our aircraft that went in on it for 100k total.... they foot the entire bill, as long as I can make it make money. So far the aircraft has been a break even deal. Once we get 135 certified (the aircraft itself is 135, but we are not yet) we will be making money. Not a lot, but at least it's on the plus side of the equation... while I log PIC Multi time and possibly some IFR while i'm at it. So that will be a win-win situation, but the only problem is that the investors must dump another 20k into the aircraft for insurance (NOW insurance is required!) and maint. So your best bet IS to buy into an aircraft, OR buy a 150/152 and rent it out while doing instruction in it. Get it IFR certified and baby you've got a money/time building machine! Maybe more time than money, but at least you get to keep the rent $$$ at the end of the day. 
I wish the best to you. Good luck... I wouldn't recommend a duchess over a 6/10 rated 152. Best of luck, Jason
I wish the best to you. Good luck... I wouldn't recommend a duchess over a 6/10 rated 152. Best of luck, Jason
10-12-2005, 09:58 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Office Chair
Posts: 629
Keep in mind...when you buy a plane, you also have to factor in fixed monthly expenses, and have money in the bank for those "surprise" annual inspection costs and airworthiness directives. To hangar a plane and protect your resale, you're looking at at least $200/mo, insurance on a twin will be very high if you can get it with your time, gas alone is over $3.00/gallon (probably at least $60/hr in a twin), engine overhauls are over $12,000 a side, and an expensive AD or annual can run in the thousands. If the gas alone costs that much, how much money is the FBO putting into maintaining the A/C for $70/hr? Also, the more people you get involved in a shared-ownership agreement, the more likely you are to have disputes...financial and otherwise. I just did the same cost/benefit analysis myself in the past couple of years, and I decided it just wasn't worth it financially.
I would highly recommend getting your multi-engine instructor rating and building multi time that way. You should be able to do it for about $3,000, and the experience you will gain will far outway the experience you would gain flying around from one $100 hamburger joint to another.
I would highly recommend getting your multi-engine instructor rating and building multi time that way. You should be able to do it for about $3,000, and the experience you will gain will far outway the experience you would gain flying around from one $100 hamburger joint to another.
