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"thumb method" for determining hold entry

Old 01-17-2009, 10:34 AM
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Default "thumb method" for determining hold entry

I was taught this method by my instructor when I was working on my instrument rating. I have also read about this method in instrument books, such as the ASA instrument flying manual.

I have discovered that this method does not work all the time, but yet I haven't found in textbooks what the "exceptions" are. Can anyone explain these to me?

If your holding instruction is (sorry if I screw this up, I haven't done this for a while!)... "Hold east of the 10 DME fix on the 270 radial of the ABC VOR, left hand turns, EFC at blah blah." When you arrive at the 10 DME fix you are heading 270.

Wouldn't the correct entry be the direct entry? Why is it that if you use the thumb method it would tell you that either parallel or teardrop entry is appropriate when that's incorrect? Or am I just doing the thumb method incorrectly?
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Old 01-17-2009, 01:38 PM
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The "thumb" method is just one of a variety of ways of helping pilots to visualize their position with respect to a holding pattern. I'm not that familiar with that one in particular but with your upside down result...

I'm guessing that you are using "radial" rather than "outbound course." Draw it out:

If you were holding =at= a VOR, your outbound course is the same as your radial. For example, in "hold west of the XYZ VOR on the 270° radial, your outbound course and the radial are identical.

But here you are holding east of a point in space that is =west= of the VOR. Even though you are on the VOR's 270° radial, your outbound course is 090°.

In using your thumb method, use the "outbound course" not the "radial" and see how that works.
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Old 01-17-2009, 03:19 PM
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i would suggest going to a pilot shop and buying one of those plastic holding wheels it has instructions on it so you cant mess it up. (at least in theory)
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Old 01-17-2009, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt View Post
The "thumb" method is just one of a variety of ways of helping pilots to visualize their position with respect to a holding pattern. I'm not that familiar with that one in particular but with your upside down result...

I'm guessing that you are using "radial" rather than "outbound course." Draw it out:

If you were holding =at= a VOR, your outbound course is the same as your radial. For example, in "hold west of the XYZ VOR on the 270° radial, your outbound course and the radial are identical.

But here you are holding east of a point in space that is =west= of the VOR. Even though you are on the VOR's 270° radial, your outbound course is 090°.

In using your thumb method, use the "outbound course" not the "radial" and see how that works.
This is exactly correct. I believe there is a question like this on the instrument written. I would always give this example to my students and they would mess it up. It really emphasizes the fact that you use the "outbound course" and not the radial.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:43 PM
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the thumb, pen, whiz wheel, and stand on your head methods are great ways to get around actually having to understand what a hold entry is. they are also great ways to bust a checkride, break a reg, or hit a mountain.
DRAW IT OUT!

it takes way longer to think, uh, ok, well, this is a left pattern, so i gotta use my right hand, but since its a tuesday, i have to use the tip of the pencil instead of using the eraser end and ATC gave me a bearing instead of a radial, but he said hold east, and im coming from the west so my heading is 070, but im going to be headed east on my outbound leg, and i have to add 20 degrees wind correction on my outbound....so i use my left hand

ok, uh, i think its gonna be a parallel....no its a direct, its a direct

anyone given a student a checkride who had been taught a "method" of determining hold entries. usually ends up like this until you ask them to actually use their pencil for what its meant for DRAWING OUT THE HOLD!

Last edited by 250 or point 65; 01-17-2009 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:53 PM
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Agreed.

I spent many hours as a student racking my brain on the thumb rule because it was the only way my instructors would explain it to me. One day one decided to have me draw it out on my kneeboard. Suddenly started making sense. Drew them for a very long time until I could make the picture in my head and haven't looked back.

Never taught the thumb method and never had a problem with a student not knowing how to enter a hold.

Today, god help me if the FMS isn't there to figure it out
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:21 PM
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Here's a link to a great holding pattern entry training aid. Click on the "Holding Pattern Training Aid" link to start the download.


www.TheCFI.com The web site for the Certificated Flight Instructor
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:33 PM
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Thanks so much guys! This has been a huge help. I do know how to draw them out and that would be my preference (can't do it in my head yet), but the examiner that I do my checks with is so speedy that there is no way he'd give me enough time to draw the thing out!
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Old 01-18-2009, 12:10 AM
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well, i've got a couple points that i think will help you a lot!

1) The first has to do with the examiner. Where a lot of applicants screw up is they forget that this is THEIR checkride. The examiner's job is to examine, not make decisions on how you do things or how quickly you do things. There is no time limit for any checkride. If you are given a bad vector, or are not ready for an approach, ask for a delay vector. If you are not ready for a hold, same deal. His job is to sit there...what about sitting there can he do speedily? First, there is no way that he should give you any hold that you have such a short time to figure out the entry that if you are efficient at drawing it out, you are not given enough time. Second, applicants also forget that he is also examining you on your decision making skills, not what method you use to determine hold entries. It shows very good judgement to take a few seconds to understand your problem so that you can choose a good solution.

2) The second has to do with your original question. Like anything in aviation, drawing holds takes practice. Have your instructor or someone else you trust knows how to choose hold entries effectively give you a TON of hold instructions. Draw and choose, draw and choose, draw and choose. The beautiful thing about drawing holds is that it gives you a graphical depiction of what you are doing. Its an outlet to organize a couple of items. Where are you in relation to the fix? Where is the hold? How should i enter it? Which direction am i going to turn first? THEN, as you are performing the hold...where am i in the hold? <- this last one sounds dumb, but it is really easy when you dont have a graphical depiction (on paper or in your head) to lose yourself as you are turning in circles. Lastly on this point, drawing it out over and over again forces you to think ahead of the airplane. What you are doing now is actually in the past, the decision has already been made and you are executing that decision. The biggest questions in instrument flying are:

Where am i?
Where am i going?
How am i going to get there?

Practice, practice, practice.

I guarentee, like pip said, that if you draw it out enough times, you will be drawing it in your head (instead of doing the thumb trick in your head)
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ufgatorpilot View Post
Thanks so much guys! This has been a huge help. I do know how to draw them out and that would be my preference (can't do it in my head yet), but the examiner that I do my checks with is so speedy that there is no way he'd give me enough time to draw the thing out!
I'm a "draw it out" guy myself, but I wanted to simply answer your question about the "thumb."

You =can= have enough time to draw them out. With a little practice you can draw it out as quickly as it is said to you - sort of a graphic shorthand to copy the holding clearance. For example, here's "hold southwest of the XYZ VOR on the 220° radial, left turns. Maintain 8000'. Expect further clearance at 0000Z." The other arrow shows your current path toward the fix.
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