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Part 91 and Low Time Jump pilots, crop dusting, and other Part 91 jobs

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Old 03-30-2010, 07:01 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by TheReelDeel33 View Post
I don't know much at all about cropdusting, but am also interested, mostly cause i've grown up on farms and def picture me as the type of kid to live where property is plentiful and there are no major cities or airports anywhere around (when I eventually can afford to move)

But what I do know about crop dusting are the basics... I'm pretty sure almost all the planes are taildraggers, and usually flown out of grass strips. Your gonna be real heavy on take off, and climb performance might not be great. Crop dusting involves alot of maunuevering at low altitudes (I consider altitude and engine oil a pilot's life blood so being low isn't for the faint of heart) and as you spray your weight is changing as well as your CG. I've never dealt with that aside from burning fuel but I know a changing CG can be deadly if not handled right... I believe that had somethin to do with the bonanza becoming known as the "v-tailed doctor killer." I don't know where you fly now, but for me it is in the NJ/Phili area where VFR landmarks are plentiful, and NJ hasn't entirely lost it's agriculture roots but the farms are fading fast. I see alot of cropdusting business moving midwest where there are still farms, and where EVERYTHING looks the same. I've flown out there once and compared to what I'm used to navigation was alot harder. You don't wanna focus in on a good spray, get confused as to where you are, and not be able to find your landing strip. Not to mention the actual spray! Have you ever tried dropping something out of a plane into a garbage can? I did in a flying competition... until you actually try it, you don't appreciate how much the drag and wind really screws up your aim.

What I'm getting at is if you could find a job crop dustin with less than 1,000 hours i'd be surprised, but even if you did it might not be the best idea to take it. I see it being something where you really gotta know your stuff... which is personal. Some pilots might be ready in a few hundred hours, but I could see others taking alot longer.
wow thanks for the amazing insight
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:07 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by TheReelDeel33 View Post
What I'm getting at is if you could find a job crop dustin with less than 1,000 hours i'd be surprised, but even if you did it might not be the best idea to take it.
please see my other posts on crop dusting, and check out the folks over at sprayplane.org

crop dusting is NOT a low-time, hour-building job. it shouldn't ever be lumped in with banner/glider tow and pipeline/traffic patrol and flying jumpers and such. it is not even a part 91 job, (see part 137) it requires special training including a state pesticide applicators license. expect to spend a year or two working on the ground as a mixer/loader before getting into a spray plane.

It is a very difficult job to get into, and requires a dedication. there are only about 3000 aerial application pilots in the country. The pay can be quite variable (the pilot is usually paid a percentage of the take) The season is short but you spend all summer away from home, much like commercial fishing.

however, it is a great career with the good potential for starting your own business if you want to pursue it for the long run.

you'll need to first convince an operator to take you on as an apprentice, plan on working on the ground at least one season, usually two. find one that operates at least one piston sprayplane.

then you will need to convince an insurance company to insure you in the spray plane. they are going to want to see a lot of tailwheel time, at least 100 hours. more importantly than time is tailwheel landings. 200 hours with 100 landings isn't going to cut it, but 100 hours with 600 landings might.

then you will have to have a training plan, something like this one: http://sundog.family.coppick.net/hom...edirects=0&d=1

notice there are a lot of hours flying an expensive aircraft with no revenue in that training plan. it's going to cost the operator a lot to get you insured. also notice that there is an awful lot of pesticides knowledge you need to acquire. flying is not the primary part of this job.

I'll address the some of the other issues of your paragraph in another post.

Last edited by SunDog; 03-30-2010 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:39 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Metalhead View Post
Ow i have, i trust me and rick777 or something like that always post alot of good useful info. From what i gathered u can be a night cargo with low fly hours at the same time that your doing your cfi right? "Do you fly like you spell?" Im sorry english bothers you. English is my second language :/

[...] You have no idea how this industry works, please let me know who will let you do night cargo with a wet commercial. You might get to do banner towing after you pay for 25 hours tail wheel for 15 grand this summer, and hopefully you have enough money for a CFI after food and renting a room at your grandmas. Then you can make 20k teaching, then you can finally get in an RJ in 3 or 4 years to make 15k a year again...
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:40 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by TheReelDeel33 View Post
But what I do know about crop dusting are the basics... I'm pretty sure almost all the planes are taildraggers, and usually flown out of grass strips.
I only know of one tricycle sprayplane model (PAC from New Zealand), and it is hardly ever seen in the US. most are turboprop tailwheel singles. my experiance is mostly working from small paved county airports, with some work from roads. grass strips are not uncommon but not the majority either.

Your gonna be real heavy on take off, and climb performance might not be great.
true, in fact it is sometimes very bad. but you only have to claw your way to 300 feet. the first turn can be kinda hairy, but after not too many turns the aircraft lightens up.

Crop dusting involves alot of maunuevering at low altitudes (I consider altitude and engine oil a pilot's life blood so being low isn't for the faint of heart) and as you spray your weight is changing as well as your CG.
true about the maneuvering. think commercial standards steep turns but at constantly changing airspeed, starting and ending at 40-ish feet AGL with around 250 feet in the middle. with the little AT301 that i fly, i am going 145 across the field, get down to about 90 in the top of the turn, back up to 145 at field entry again. stall speed is about 80. in many ag planes (air tractors in particular) the flap settings change constantly in the turn as well.

yes, weight changes constantly during the spray run. however, the CG dosen't change very much. The hopper (and thus the load) is located right at the CG so as the load goes out, the cg dosen't change much. we do, however, have to constantly adjust power and trim to maintain the same groundspeed (notice not airspeed) across the field while spraying. (unless you have fancy variable rate spray gear.)

I see alot of cropdusting business moving midwest where there are still farms, and where EVERYTHING looks the same. I've flown out there once and compared to what I'm used to navigation was alot harder. You don't wanna focus in on a good spray, get confused as to where you are, and not be able to find your landing strip.
you do have to be able to find the particular field you are going to spray, and be able to tell different crops from the air. spray the wrong field, for example put roundup that was meant for roundup-ready corn onto someone's sugarbeet field, and you just cost your employer a LOT of money. not only on the lost product (sometimes the value of what is in the hold is more than the empty aircraft is worth) but in the lawsuit to settle the destroyed beet field. oh and don't even get me started on what happens if you put a load of 2,4-D or even pesticide on some "organic" field.

however, once you find your field, we almost all use differential-GPS systems to track our swaths with about 6-inch precision. imagine flying an ILS at about 10x the precision at 12 feet AGL. with rolling hills. and a pivot to clear in the middle. and trees at the end. and a crosswind.

We always try to work with a direct crosswind, because we need to keep the groundspeed constant so that the rate of spray stays constant from one pass to the next, and also so we get to fly through clean air, not through our own spray. too much wind and there are drift issues. too little wind and the spray just kind of hangs in the air and dosen't settle properly. (think low level inversion)

getting home isn't usually a problem. usually we fly out of the same strip or the same couple of strips every day, usually 10 to 20 or more landings a day. also the GPS system has a "home" waypoint.

most spray planes don't have a lot of endurance, and we don't go full fuel every time, so getting lost can mean landing in an other-than-intended location.

Not to mention the actual spray! Have you ever tried dropping something out of a plane into a garbage can? I did in a flying competition... until you actually try it, you don't appreciate how much the drag and wind really screws up your aim.
wind drift (of the product) is a huge issue. if you drift, you can have the same losses described above, plus drift can go onto a residential area and cause problems for people if you have just the wrong conditions.

Last edited by SunDog; 03-30-2010 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:45 PM
  #15  
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most jumper gigs are not all that low time either, most require 500 total and 25 in type now, no more 250 mins....also most now can ask for some time flying jumpers........and thats for piston 182s, 206s you might move from a 182 to, but your not gonna be flying otters/ka90s/porters/pacs etc, its a boat ton easier to be an FO on an RJ with 50 people in the back, then to be the only pilot on a twin otter with 22 people with parachutes on
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:54 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by rickt86 View Post
[...] You have no idea how this industry works, please let me know who will let you do night cargo with a wet commercial. You might get to do banner towing after you pay for 25 hours tail wheel for 15 grand this summer, and hopefully you have enough money for a CFI after food and renting a room at your grandmas. Then you can make 20k teaching, then you can finally get in an RJ in 3 or 4 years to make 15k a year again...
to be honest i was just reading older post,and was trying to understand them. they could be completely wrong and no i nothing of the business, thats why i logged on here, to learn
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:59 PM
  #17  
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this is the post i read....it doesn't say any required hours for night cargo, so i assumed you could go right into it

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Jason,

The route to cargo and the airlines is essentially the same in the beginning. There are VERY few possible shortcuts, but many people will likely try to sell you one for a great deal of $$$. There are NO valid shortcut programs in the LA area, so if you're going to hang out there, here's what you will need to do. Anyone who says anything different is going to try to sell you an expensive training program.

Self-evaluate:I am OK with math?
I am OK with technical things?
I am a good people person, who is ASSERTIVE?
I am I in good health?
Do I have a decent driving record (NO DUIs)?
Am I free of any criminal convictions? (MINOR stupidity in your distant past might be ok)

If you answer no to any of the above you will probably spend a lot of $$$ and go nowhere.

Find an Aviation Medical Examiner
Get a FIRST CLASS medical (not a 2nd or third)

Flight school. Check out the internet, and go visit several in your area. A school with a 141 program MIGHT save you a little money. The training you will need is:

Private Pilot ($8000)
Instrument Rating ($6000) MS Flight Sim is a useful practice tool.
Commercial License ($15000)
Commercial Multi-engine Rating ($3000)
Cert Flight Instructor CFI ($3000)
Instrument Instructor ($2500)

The prices are very rough estimates, and will be higher if you do a lot of your training in a twin engine aircraft.

CFI Now you have around 300 hours total time (TT) and 15 multi-engine (ME)and can get a job as a flight instructor (CFI). To get a job at the next level you will need about 1000 TT, and 100 ME. The TT will come within 12-18 months as a CFI. The ME time may be harder, but you can buy it ($$$) or get a ME instructor license and get a job as ME instructor. I believe ATP does a lot of your initial training in a twin, so you might already have 100 ME.

Night Cargo At this point you can get a job flying "night cargo". This will be single pilot, night, bad weather, mountain flying, in small old, worn out airplanes with a high FATALITY rate. The pay is miserable, there are NO benefits, and you work constantly. This is probably not what you had in mind as a career destination...however if you like it you can eventually move up to 2 pilot mid-size aircraft (mostly propellor) and you will make a marginal income with some benefits, but nothing great.

Regional Airline. When you have reached 1500-2500 TT and 300-500 ME (within 1 year, if you survive), you can work for a regional airline. You will start in either turboprops or regional jets (RJs)and after 3-5 years become an RJ captain. This is much safer and more comfortable than your previous aviation jobs. Better money, work rules and time off. After a couple years as an RJ captain, you can apply to a Major airline...

Major Airline. Now the confusing thing about major airlines, is that this includes all the BIG cargo operators (UPS, FEDEX, DHL, ATLAS, etc) who operate large turbojet aircraft. These operators work just like passenger airlines in many ways and have good pay & benefits. However they are just as competetive, probably more so today, as any passenger airline when it comes to pilot hiring. If you want to work for any major airline (cargo or pax) plan on excelling in every way during your aviation career. You'll need a 4 year degree to get to this level also.

One possible shortcut is to skip Night Cargo and go from CFI directly to a Regional Airline (I did this). You will need some opportunity to work as a multi-engine instructor to do this. Be advised that a "Commercial Pilot License" really does not qualify you to do anything other than to work as a flight instructor after you get your CFI ratings. There are a few possible shortcuts (does your dad own a private jet?), but for most of us the path I described above is the reality. Good Luck

Last edited by Cubdriver; 03-31-2010 at 06:09 AM. Reason: cleaned up the quoted content
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Old 03-30-2010, 11:17 PM
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holy crap.
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Old 03-31-2010, 06:05 AM
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Metalhead, when you want to quote posts from other users press the little blue button at the bottom of every post that is marked <''Quote>. This makes the post you are quoting come out in your own post, and it lets other readers know exactly which post you are replying to. I cleaned up your quotation this time and there is no rule against sloppiness, but since you are new I cleaned it up for you. Please use your best English also, because people will give you better answers if they understand exactly what you are saying.

-Cub
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Old 03-31-2010, 06:30 AM
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I agree with most of what people said. For anyone out there trying to break into to the industry it is a real hard time. I go to a large four year university sponsored program and we can still not find jobs. I understand that some peoples dream is to fly small planes or corporate but for people who don't have a job right now we are all looking for anything possible. I also will have to say that since this is the Part 91 and Low Time thread there will probably be a lot of posts about people trying to find jobs/hours with low time if you are sick of hearing about them then don't read the threads. I personally enjoy reading every one even though it may have been posted 10-15 times. There usually seems to be something new that pops up every time.
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