FlyingBulldog

I have a question about private pilots and the compensation rule. I'm sure this has been asked for a thousand different scenarios, but I'm really unsure. Sorry if this is in the wrong area...

I'll use a hypothetical scenario:

Say a private pilot was sitting in a coffee shop when he noticed the guy next to him drawing boundaries on a satellite image on his computer. During conversation with the land salesman, it came up that the salesman could use someone to fly him over his listings so that he could take aerial photographs. Would it be legal for the private pilot to take this salesman on a flight and accept 50% of the flight cost, so that he is not paying less than his pro rata share of the flight, as stated in FAR 61.113 Section (c)? For example, rent a Cessna 172 for $160 per hour, and accept $80 per hour from the salesman?

If this is in fact legal, could the pilot also approach other land salesmen/real estate agents in the area with the same deal, allowing him to build time at half price?

I'm thinking this would be a nice loophole, but my "too-good-to-be-true" alert is also flashing.

Aviator89

hmmmm. good question. For the first part Id say yes, just the one guy. But to the second part where you are advertising your "service". No. Thats holding out to the public. Now if that guy tells his friends, and they contact you then splitting the costs I think is ok. Them paying all the costs (whether they pay your or not), no. Thats not legal unless u have a commercial. (this is my opinion from what I understand, I may be mistaken, correct me if I am wrong)

If the other companies had guys who were pilots(recreational or commercial, doesnt matter) on staff that went with you then you could get a free flight, if the company compensated their employee for all costs, and he/she let you fly it while they take pictures or whatever. It would be incidental to the other pilots business. So all costs can be covered by the business. But that is one big gray area... the FAA doesnt clearly identify what "compensation" is considered for you. Is it lunch? Flight time? A ride to and from the airport? or just a pure and simple paycheck? They all have a monetary value right? Hard to tell for sure if this would be legal.
Maybe a FAA guy could chime in here. How do you see this situation?

ClarenceOver

Don't even think about it unless you enjoy talking to the FAA.

doublerjay

I think it's the "approach other land salesmen/real estate agents in the area with the same deal" part that would get you in trouble. In essence, your advertising services, "same deal" for compensation.
Also, the flight purpose would not fall under the 'incidental' portion of 61.113(b)(2). The entire purpose of the flight is to survey so the whole reason is flying for compensation.
There wouldn't be much talking to the FAA, more like spending a LONG time trying to get your PPL certificate back after revocation.

FlyingBulldog

I reckon it won't hurt me a bit to wait another 80 hours for my commercial then!

Ewfflyer

That would be recommended. Also, if you are holding out by providing plane and pilot, thats 135 work. Make them arrange the plane outside of your control. An owned, leased, or rental, just don't be involved with setting up the aircraft. Then they can hire you pending insurance being ok with you.

The irony of a COM ticket is it's really difficult to get that first job and be legal.

joepilot

I am going to have to disagree about this being 135. I believe that a Commercial pilot could do this, including providing the rental aircraft, for local aerial photography. If transportation is the goal, then 135. Local photo shoot, landing at airport of origination, no.

Joe

FlyingBulldog

Well I guess my thinking was that the business that the flight is not "incidental" to is that of the land sale, and that by not attempting to make any sort of profit, I'm not actually operating a "business".

But, this is why we ask questions.

joepilot

The FAA has made it clear that getting loggable flight time, especially for a low time pilot, may be compensation. A key work here is may. A retired 747 captain is not trying to build flight time toward a new rating, but you are.

If you were to pay everything, and fly them around out of the goodness of your heart, then there would be no problem.

If you were planning to make that exact same flight, and let them know about it, and they then offered to split costs, then it MIGHT not be a problem.

This is where the FAA is likely to ask questions. Were you actually planning to go up that day and do ground reference maneuvering in the exact area that the real estate was located in? Why?

It's always best to navigate around the grey areas, not in them.

Joe

Ewfflyer

I'm debating that, while it could fall under that, they are shooting the photo's with a commercial interest. I don't know if that changes things or not in the eyes of the Feds. They seem to be going after everything now.

Honestly the best people to ask might just be the local FSDO, especially since they would be the ones making the determination anyways. I would hate to see internet gab get someone in trouble just because it "sounded good".