Getting into Ag flying?
06-07-2016, 04:40 AM
#1
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Corporate FO
Posts: 72
Getting into Ag flying?
Hey all...
I have a bunch of questions because the Ag side of things is something I've been interested in for a while and need a little guidance. I've emailed a Ag school and no response.
I have 2100 hours, CFII, MEI, CFI, 800 M.E., 700 Turbine. I am currently a King Air pilot for a contractor company and want to fly an 802 for a contractor company.
How do I get into flying an AT-802? Do I call an Ag school and go through all of the chemical classes? How long does it take to get into an 802? How much does it cost? I can do a tail wheel endorsement at home very easily.
I'm sure there are a few more question that I don't know to ask.
Basically, what's the process, where do I go, how long does a SEAT certificate take, how much does it cost and how do I get into flying an 802?
Thanks!
I have a bunch of questions because the Ag side of things is something I've been interested in for a while and need a little guidance. I've emailed a Ag school and no response.
I have 2100 hours, CFII, MEI, CFI, 800 M.E., 700 Turbine. I am currently a King Air pilot for a contractor company and want to fly an 802 for a contractor company.
How do I get into flying an AT-802? Do I call an Ag school and go through all of the chemical classes? How long does it take to get into an 802? How much does it cost? I can do a tail wheel endorsement at home very easily.
I'm sure there are a few more question that I don't know to ask.
Basically, what's the process, where do I go, how long does a SEAT certificate take, how much does it cost and how do I get into flying an 802?
Thanks!
06-07-2016, 06:27 AM
#2
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,021
You have a lot of questions.
How much tailwheel experience do you have?
There are a couple of routes to ag flying. It's never been an easy business to get into, but over the past few decades, it's become more difficult because there are considerably less ag aircraft than there used to be, and they've become more expensive, and harder to ensure. It used to be that one could climb into a pawnee and get entry level experience there, before moving to other aircraft. Traditionally one would mix chemicals and do other duties before getting into the pawnee.
Today few operators use piston ag airplanes. There aren't very many pawnees, braves, ag trucks, or even ag cats in use any more; most operators use turbine ag cat, thrush, and air tractors. It would be very unusual to go into an 802 for someone coming into ag work.
You'll increase your chances considerably if you have maintenance experience and a mechanic certificate with both airframe and powerplant ratings, and your own tools.
Traditionally one either started with an operator doing maintenance and mixing chemical and driving, or went to an ag school. Usually both. An ag school doesn't guarantee you a position, but some of the schools do have relationships with operators that hire inexperienced pilots. Many who go to ag schools still go to work turning wrenches and mixing chemicals before they fly.
A tailwheel endorsement is not the same as having tailwheel experience.
As far as getting to an 802, that really depends on the operator. It took me about 20 years. Today I wouldn't anticipate that for you. The 802 is a 16,000 lb airplane that doesn't have a type rating, and it's unique because there isn't really a way to train someone into the airplane. Usually one has experience in other air tractors and moves into the 802; training and preparation is plane-side, in single pilot airplanes. There are two two seat cockpit 802s in tandem (and a new 502 with side by side seating for training), but the 802 is a terrible place to train and not a place to put someone to learn. They need to be 100% before getting in the airplane in the first place.
SEAT operations are another matter. While the 802 is a 16,000 lb airplane, you'll never see that kind of weight in ag operations. SEATs, yes. Nearly every takeoff, and they'll all be hot and high, with minimal climb performance, in mountainous terrain, and often in low visibility, and nearly always with a lot of wind. OAS/AMD carding requirements are 1,500 hours, but I've known only one person who was carded with such low experience. Most have a minimum of 5,000 hours or more, and I know a lot of SEAT pilots with 25,000 hours experience or more. There are about 55 SEAT jobs available; nearly all are filled perpetually, and of those only 30 are exclusive use (guaranteed to work during the fire season).
For SEAT work, mountain experience is necessary. There are two classes of SEAT carding; Level 1 and Level 2. Level 2 is the entry certification, and has some restrictions, including the inability to fly exclusive use contracts or exclusive use relief work. Most operators look for level 1 pilots. The level 2 restricts a pilot to 2 or less aircraft over the fire, and usually needs to work with aerial supervision.
If you're serious about fire work, you need to understand what you're getting into. Particularly with SEATs, there's nothing else that's comparable, including row crop ag work. It's not the same kind of flying or work at all. The 802 when loaded is something that can get you into a lot of trouble, especially when you're flying in low visibility in turbulence in the mountains, with a lot of other aircraft nearby.
Once you've found an an operator that will hire you, there is company training, carding paperwork, an OAS checkride (oral, drop demonstrations), and you'll need to attend the national aerial firefighting academy course 1, which includes classroom, sandtable, and simulator sessions. The online computer course has been discontinued, as has the annual training in Boise. What follows is largely on the job training, and many of those who start don't last a season, of don't come back for the second.
You can't get carded for fire on your own. You can only get carded for fire once you've been hired by an operator and sponsored through the program by the operator.
Step one is to get some tailwheel experience. I'd suggest visiting as many ag operators as you can to talk to them about their business. You might try some of the ag schools. Most of them only last a few years. Flying Tigers has been around for some time now. The longest lasting school, I believe, is Ag Flight in Bainbridge, GA.
How much tailwheel experience do you have?
There are a couple of routes to ag flying. It's never been an easy business to get into, but over the past few decades, it's become more difficult because there are considerably less ag aircraft than there used to be, and they've become more expensive, and harder to ensure. It used to be that one could climb into a pawnee and get entry level experience there, before moving to other aircraft. Traditionally one would mix chemicals and do other duties before getting into the pawnee.
Today few operators use piston ag airplanes. There aren't very many pawnees, braves, ag trucks, or even ag cats in use any more; most operators use turbine ag cat, thrush, and air tractors. It would be very unusual to go into an 802 for someone coming into ag work.
You'll increase your chances considerably if you have maintenance experience and a mechanic certificate with both airframe and powerplant ratings, and your own tools.
Traditionally one either started with an operator doing maintenance and mixing chemical and driving, or went to an ag school. Usually both. An ag school doesn't guarantee you a position, but some of the schools do have relationships with operators that hire inexperienced pilots. Many who go to ag schools still go to work turning wrenches and mixing chemicals before they fly.
A tailwheel endorsement is not the same as having tailwheel experience.
As far as getting to an 802, that really depends on the operator. It took me about 20 years. Today I wouldn't anticipate that for you. The 802 is a 16,000 lb airplane that doesn't have a type rating, and it's unique because there isn't really a way to train someone into the airplane. Usually one has experience in other air tractors and moves into the 802; training and preparation is plane-side, in single pilot airplanes. There are two two seat cockpit 802s in tandem (and a new 502 with side by side seating for training), but the 802 is a terrible place to train and not a place to put someone to learn. They need to be 100% before getting in the airplane in the first place.
SEAT operations are another matter. While the 802 is a 16,000 lb airplane, you'll never see that kind of weight in ag operations. SEATs, yes. Nearly every takeoff, and they'll all be hot and high, with minimal climb performance, in mountainous terrain, and often in low visibility, and nearly always with a lot of wind. OAS/AMD carding requirements are 1,500 hours, but I've known only one person who was carded with such low experience. Most have a minimum of 5,000 hours or more, and I know a lot of SEAT pilots with 25,000 hours experience or more. There are about 55 SEAT jobs available; nearly all are filled perpetually, and of those only 30 are exclusive use (guaranteed to work during the fire season).
For SEAT work, mountain experience is necessary. There are two classes of SEAT carding; Level 1 and Level 2. Level 2 is the entry certification, and has some restrictions, including the inability to fly exclusive use contracts or exclusive use relief work. Most operators look for level 1 pilots. The level 2 restricts a pilot to 2 or less aircraft over the fire, and usually needs to work with aerial supervision.
If you're serious about fire work, you need to understand what you're getting into. Particularly with SEATs, there's nothing else that's comparable, including row crop ag work. It's not the same kind of flying or work at all. The 802 when loaded is something that can get you into a lot of trouble, especially when you're flying in low visibility in turbulence in the mountains, with a lot of other aircraft nearby.
Once you've found an an operator that will hire you, there is company training, carding paperwork, an OAS checkride (oral, drop demonstrations), and you'll need to attend the national aerial firefighting academy course 1, which includes classroom, sandtable, and simulator sessions. The online computer course has been discontinued, as has the annual training in Boise. What follows is largely on the job training, and many of those who start don't last a season, of don't come back for the second.
You can't get carded for fire on your own. You can only get carded for fire once you've been hired by an operator and sponsored through the program by the operator.
Step one is to get some tailwheel experience. I'd suggest visiting as many ag operators as you can to talk to them about their business. You might try some of the ag schools. Most of them only last a few years. Flying Tigers has been around for some time now. The longest lasting school, I believe, is Ag Flight in Bainbridge, GA.
06-07-2016, 02:37 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 116
Not much to add following Burke, other than it's a very, very tight community, at least in California. Knock on doors, show that you're serious. Start at the bottom loading, preferably A&P, get tail-wheel time. If someone gives you a chance and you pay your dues, make a name from yourself, the word gets out that you're a reliable pilot.
06-08-2016, 07:04 AM
#4
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Corporate FO
Posts: 72
802
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
You have a lot of questions.
How much tailwheel experience do you have?
There are a couple of routes to ag flying. It's never been an easy business to get into, but over the past few decades, it's become more difficult because there are considerably less ag aircraft than there used to be, and they've become more expensive, and harder to ensure. It used to be that one could climb into a pawnee and get entry level experience there, before moving to other aircraft. Traditionally one would mix chemicals and do other duties before getting into the pawnee.
Today few operators use piston ag airplanes. There aren't very many pawnees, braves, ag trucks, or even ag cats in use any more; most operators use turbine ag cat, thrush, and air tractors. It would be very unusual to go into an 802 for someone coming into ag work.
You'll increase your chances considerably if you have maintenance experience and a mechanic certificate with both airframe and powerplant ratings, and your own tools.
Traditionally one either started with an operator doing maintenance and mixing chemical and driving, or went to an ag school. Usually both. An ag school doesn't guarantee you a position, but some of the schools do have relationships with operators that hire inexperienced pilots. Many who go to ag schools still go to work turning wrenches and mixing chemicals before they fly.
A tailwheel endorsement is not the same as having tailwheel experience.
As far as getting to an 802, that really depends on the operator. It took me about 20 years. Today I wouldn't anticipate that for you. The 802 is a 16,000 lb airplane that doesn't have a type rating, and it's unique because there isn't really a way to train someone into the airplane. Usually one has experience in other air tractors and moves into the 802; training and preparation is plane-side, in single pilot airplanes. There are two two seat cockpit 802s in tandem (and a new 502 with side by side seating for training), but the 802 is a terrible place to train and not a place to put someone to learn. They need to be 100% before getting in the airplane in the first place.
SEAT operations are another matter. While the 802 is a 16,000 lb airplane, you'll never see that kind of weight in ag operations. SEATs, yes. Nearly every takeoff, and they'll all be hot and high, with minimal climb performance, in mountainous terrain, and often in low visibility, and nearly always with a lot of wind. OAS/AMD carding requirements are 1,500 hours, but I've known only one person who was carded with such low experience. Most have a minimum of 5,000 hours or more, and I know a lot of SEAT pilots with 25,000 hours experience or more. There are about 55 SEAT jobs available; nearly all are filled perpetually, and of those only 30 are exclusive use (guaranteed to work during the fire season).
For SEAT work, mountain experience is necessary. There are two classes of SEAT carding; Level 1 and Level 2. Level 2 is the entry certification, and has some restrictions, including the inability to fly exclusive use contracts or exclusive use relief work. Most operators look for level 1 pilots. The level 2 restricts a pilot to 2 or less aircraft over the fire, and usually needs to work with aerial supervision.
If you're serious about fire work, you need to understand what you're getting into. Particularly with SEATs, there's nothing else that's comparable, including row crop ag work. It's not the same kind of flying or work at all. The 802 when loaded is something that can get you into a lot of trouble, especially when you're flying in low visibility in turbulence in the mountains, with a lot of other aircraft nearby.
Once you've found an an operator that will hire you, there is company training, carding paperwork, an OAS checkride (oral, drop demonstrations), and you'll need to attend the national aerial firefighting academy course 1, which includes classroom, sandtable, and simulator sessions. The online computer course has been discontinued, as has the annual training in Boise. What follows is largely on the job training, and many of those who start don't last a season, of don't come back for the second.
You can't get carded for fire on your own. You can only get carded for fire once you've been hired by an operator and sponsored through the program by the operator.
Step one is to get some tailwheel experience. I'd suggest visiting as many ag operators as you can to talk to them about their business. You might try some of the ag schools. Most of them only last a few years. Flying Tigers has been around for some time now. The longest lasting school, I believe, is Ag Flight in Bainbridge, GA.
How much tailwheel experience do you have?
There are a couple of routes to ag flying. It's never been an easy business to get into, but over the past few decades, it's become more difficult because there are considerably less ag aircraft than there used to be, and they've become more expensive, and harder to ensure. It used to be that one could climb into a pawnee and get entry level experience there, before moving to other aircraft. Traditionally one would mix chemicals and do other duties before getting into the pawnee.
Today few operators use piston ag airplanes. There aren't very many pawnees, braves, ag trucks, or even ag cats in use any more; most operators use turbine ag cat, thrush, and air tractors. It would be very unusual to go into an 802 for someone coming into ag work.
You'll increase your chances considerably if you have maintenance experience and a mechanic certificate with both airframe and powerplant ratings, and your own tools.
Traditionally one either started with an operator doing maintenance and mixing chemical and driving, or went to an ag school. Usually both. An ag school doesn't guarantee you a position, but some of the schools do have relationships with operators that hire inexperienced pilots. Many who go to ag schools still go to work turning wrenches and mixing chemicals before they fly.
A tailwheel endorsement is not the same as having tailwheel experience.
As far as getting to an 802, that really depends on the operator. It took me about 20 years. Today I wouldn't anticipate that for you. The 802 is a 16,000 lb airplane that doesn't have a type rating, and it's unique because there isn't really a way to train someone into the airplane. Usually one has experience in other air tractors and moves into the 802; training and preparation is plane-side, in single pilot airplanes. There are two two seat cockpit 802s in tandem (and a new 502 with side by side seating for training), but the 802 is a terrible place to train and not a place to put someone to learn. They need to be 100% before getting in the airplane in the first place.
SEAT operations are another matter. While the 802 is a 16,000 lb airplane, you'll never see that kind of weight in ag operations. SEATs, yes. Nearly every takeoff, and they'll all be hot and high, with minimal climb performance, in mountainous terrain, and often in low visibility, and nearly always with a lot of wind. OAS/AMD carding requirements are 1,500 hours, but I've known only one person who was carded with such low experience. Most have a minimum of 5,000 hours or more, and I know a lot of SEAT pilots with 25,000 hours experience or more. There are about 55 SEAT jobs available; nearly all are filled perpetually, and of those only 30 are exclusive use (guaranteed to work during the fire season).
For SEAT work, mountain experience is necessary. There are two classes of SEAT carding; Level 1 and Level 2. Level 2 is the entry certification, and has some restrictions, including the inability to fly exclusive use contracts or exclusive use relief work. Most operators look for level 1 pilots. The level 2 restricts a pilot to 2 or less aircraft over the fire, and usually needs to work with aerial supervision.
If you're serious about fire work, you need to understand what you're getting into. Particularly with SEATs, there's nothing else that's comparable, including row crop ag work. It's not the same kind of flying or work at all. The 802 when loaded is something that can get you into a lot of trouble, especially when you're flying in low visibility in turbulence in the mountains, with a lot of other aircraft nearby.
Once you've found an an operator that will hire you, there is company training, carding paperwork, an OAS checkride (oral, drop demonstrations), and you'll need to attend the national aerial firefighting academy course 1, which includes classroom, sandtable, and simulator sessions. The online computer course has been discontinued, as has the annual training in Boise. What follows is largely on the job training, and many of those who start don't last a season, of don't come back for the second.
You can't get carded for fire on your own. You can only get carded for fire once you've been hired by an operator and sponsored through the program by the operator.
Step one is to get some tailwheel experience. I'd suggest visiting as many ag operators as you can to talk to them about their business. You might try some of the ag schools. Most of them only last a few years. Flying Tigers has been around for some time now. The longest lasting school, I believe, is Ag Flight in Bainbridge, GA.
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