Skywest pilots, this string is for an intelligent debate on the pros and cons of ALPA.
I have posted several times on the "moral" responsibilty of participating and do not intend to repeat that here. If someone is interested they can read previous threads. I do want to make a few point and open a discussion.
1. July 3, 2007 ASA Management came to the pilot union (ALPA) and said they need relief from the contract (that is to disreguard a contractual rule) on new hire pay. What they wanted was to be able to offer greater pay or a bonus for new hires. It would appear that we are losing pilots at a rate faster than we can hire them. Our last class was suppose to be 20 and only 11 showed up.
As anyone who reads this board knows, part of the reason people are going to carriers other than ASA is because of low moral, long upgrade times, and sub standard pay/ work rules. Our company is looking to fix that with a bribe (probably a one time bonus) to fix the problem.
Our union told them "NO". If you want to solve your attrition/new hire problem, sign a contract and reward those who have continued to work without a contract for over 5 years, cut down on attrition, and make ASA a more desirable place to work.
The point to this is, if we did not have representation, management could of just implemented the raise or bonus for new hires and taken that money away from the pilot group. Pilot pay comes out of one basket, and you better believe that if they have to pay one portion of the pilot group more, than they are going to take it away from somewhere else! Does Skywest offer a bonus? Not yet, but is it possible it is coming? If so, will they give that raise to new hires and not those of you who are out their working hard for the company every day? Who knows. But, with representation you could at least have a say in the process. Today, with SAPA, you would have to accept whatever management decides.
2. Termination of employment. As most airline pilots know, and many of you CFI's are learning, working in the airline business is very different from the "real world". You can't work at a company for 4 or 5 years and decide that you are unhappy with them, and decide to quit and get a new job, i.e. a lateral transfer. Even if you go to a Legacy (which is not nearly as great as it use to be) you still have to go to the back of the line, take a pay cut, go back on reserve/back to the right seat. You can't take what you know and command a salary on the market like a sales person or even a corporate pilot.
Here are two quick stories, one of them mine.
A 6 year military pilot (army) and 8 year veteran of the airlines violates a rule. Captain allowed intern access to the cockpit and touch buttons and the controls.
F.O. told, and Captain lost his job, his home, and if not for ALPA, his career.
Now I know some of you, especially the new guys who haven't seen what all goes on out there on-line or what went on back in the "old days" will say- "the captain deserved to get fired" and probably "I would have never done that". I would say you don't know yet what you may or may not let slide in your future, and most enterns I know, have a story where they got to do something before it was authorized.
Is it fair that the Captain's judgement, which had been good for nearly 15 years of flying, was forever ruined because of one event? Some may say yes, but the majority says no. Thru the union process the captain was restored with seniority and today is doing quite well. (if you haven't guessed it's me)
Story 2. A guy applies at ASA and has a slight color blind issue. He works there for years and becomes a EMB 120 captain, no problem. When he upgrades to the jet, his color blind issue causes some problems. He is able to overcome them, but the company decides to fire him because he "lied" on his application. The portion in question was "do you have any limitations on your medical?" His medical did not have a limitation, but his color blind issue was documented on his flight medical records with Oklahoma. He answered the question correctly, but they fired him because in their opinion, it was a lie. The arbitrator that review his case in an ALPA dispute didn't see it that way, and he was restored with seniority and is now a 700 captain flying everyday. Without representation, he could of taken the company to court, but who on this board has the money to hire an attorney to take on a wrongfull termination case? Not me, that's for sure.
The point I hope to express is that ALPA is not perfect. But in a business that is so different than others and so easy to loose everything in a heartbeat (no matter if it is check rides, medicals, or bone headed manuevers) having representation not only makes you part of the team that is making things better for EVERYONE, but it also helps you protect what you have put so much time and money into.
Return your cards, and if after long consideration of the benefits for your long term career you wish to vote no, then vote NO, but get your cards in and let the pilot group decide what is best for everyone.
Great illustrations. I started at SkyWest as an anti-ALPA guy. I finished IOE on the fence. After a year at SkyWest, I think we need a union. ALPA may not be the best union, but it is clearly better than nothing.
Back when everyone in Ops knew your name, a union was probably ridiculous to all those but the most militant. SkyWest management has exceeded their skillset. With nearly 3,000 pilots and more support crew, this company cannot operate "mom-n-pop" anymore. We need a legally binding contract.
Skywest pilots, this string is for an intelligent debate on the pros and cons of ALPA.
I have posted several times on the "moral" responsibility of participating and do not intend to repeat that here. If someone is interested they can read previous threads. I do want to make a few point and open a discussion.
1. July 3, 2007 ASA Management came to the pilot union (ALPA) and said they need relief from the contract (that is to disreguard a contractual rule) on new hire pay. What they wanted was to be able to offer greater pay or a bonus for new hires. It would appear that we are losing pilots at a rate faster than we can hire them. Our last class was suppose to be 20 and only 11 showed up.
As anyone who reads this board knows, part of the reason people are going to carriers other than ASA is because of low moral, long upgrade times, and sub standard pay/ work rules. Our company is looking to fix that with a bribe (probably a one time bonus) to fix the problem.
Our union told them "NO". If you want to solve your attrition/new hire problem, sign a contract and reward those who have continued to work without a contract for over 5 years, cut down on attrition, and make ASA a more desirable place to work.
The point to this is, if we did not have representation, management could of just implemented the raise or bonus for new hires and taken that money away from the pilot group. Pilot pay comes out of one basket, and you better believe that if they have to pay one portion of the pilot group more, than they are going to take it away from somewhere else! Does Skywest offer a bonus? Not yet, but is it possible it is coming? If so, will they give that raise to new hires and not those of you who are out their working hard for the company every day? Who knows. But, with representation you could at least have a say in the process. Today, with SAPA, you would have to accept whatever management decides.
2. Termination of employment. As most airline pilots know, and many of you CFI's are learning, working in the airline business is very different from the "real world". You can't work at a company for 4 or 5 years and decide that you are unhappy with them, and decide to quit and get a new job, i.e. a lateral transfer. Even if you go to a Legacy (which is not nearly as great as it use to be) you still have to go to the back of the line, take a pay cut, go back on reserve/back to the right seat. You can't take what you know and command a salary on the market like a sales person or even a corporate pilot.
Here are two quick stories, one of them mine.
A 6 year military pilot (army) and 8 year veteran of the airlines violates a rule. Captain allowed intern access to the cockpit and touch buttons and the controls.
F.O. told, and Captain lost his job, his home, and if not for ALPA, his career.
Now I know some of you, especially the new guys who haven't seen what all goes on out there on-line or what went on back in the "old days" will say- "the captain deserved to get fired" and probably "I would have never done that". I would say you don't know yet what you may or may not let slide in your future, and most enterns I know, have a story where they got to do something before it was authorized.
Is it fair that the Captain's judgement, which had been good for nearly 15 years of flying, was forever ruined because of one event? Some may say yes, but the majority says no. Thru the union process the captain was restored with seniority and today is doing quite well. (if you haven't guessed it's me)
Story 2. A guy applies at ASA and has a slight color blind issue. He works there for years and becomes a EMB 120 captain, no problem. When he upgrades to the jet, his color blind issue causes some problems. He is able to overcome them, but the company decides to fire him because he "lied" on his application. The portion in question was "do you have any limitations on your medical?" His medical did not have a limitation, but his color blind issue was documented on his flight medical records with Oklahoma. He answered the question correctly, but they fired him because in their opinion, it was a lie. The arbitrator that review his case in an ALPA dispute didn't see it that way, and he was restored with seniority and is now a 700 captain flying everyday. Without representation, he could of taken the company to court, but who on this board has the money to hire an attorney to take on a wrongfull termination case? Not me, that's for sure.
The point I hope to express is that ALPA is not perfect. But in a business that is so different than others and so easy to loose everything in a heartbeat (no matter if it is check rides, medicals, or bone headed manuevers) having representation not only makes you part of the team that is making things better for EVERYONE, but it also helps you protect what you have put so much time and money into.
Return your cards, and if after long consideration of the benefits for your long term career you wish to vote no, then vote NO, but get your cards in and let the pilot group decide what is best for everyone.
Sincerely,
Stick
You have used a TERRIBLE example in an effort to illustrate the benefits of ALPA. The first guy should have been fired. And from what i understand if he hadn't have been such a d***bag to his FO he probably wouldn't have turned the CA in. That CA put the FO in a terrible situation! The intern blabs about his stick time and the FO gets fired as well. If it were me i wouldn't risk my career/ticket on someone who treated me like sh*t! CRM!!! Getting a**holes with bad judgment their jobs back it not what ALPA is about. I agree with the other examples. If the one I'm talking about is you then I'm sorry you had to hear it and if my second hand info is wrong then please set me straight with specifics. ALPA is necessary but not perfect. And i agree that the likes of Skywest and others benefit from ALPA negotiations without paying dues.
Skywest pilots, this string is for an intelligent debate on the pros and cons of ALPA.
I have posted several times on the "moral" responsibilty of participating and do not intend to repeat that here. If someone is interested they can read previous threads. I do want to make a few point and open a discussion.
1. July 3, 2007 ASA Management came to the pilot union (ALPA) and said they need relief from the contract (that is to disreguard a contractual rule) on new hire pay. What they wanted was to be able to offer greater pay or a bonus for new hires. It would appear that we are losing pilots at a rate faster than we can hire them. Our last class was suppose to be 20 and only 11 showed up.
As anyone who reads this board knows, part of the reason people are going to carriers other than ASA is because of low moral, long upgrade times, and sub standard pay/ work rules. Our company is looking to fix that with a bribe (probably a one time bonus) to fix the problem.
Our union told them "NO". If you want to solve your attrition/new hire problem, sign a contract and reward those who have continued to work without a contract for over 5 years, cut down on attrition, and make ASA a more desirable place to work.
The point to this is, if we did not have representation, management could of just implemented the raise or bonus for new hires and taken that money away from the pilot group. Pilot pay comes out of one basket, and you better believe that if they have to pay one portion of the pilot group more, than they are going to take it away from somewhere else! Does Skywest offer a bonus? Not yet, but is it possible it is coming? If so, will they give that raise to new hires and not those of you who are out their working hard for the company every day? Who knows. But, with representation you could at least have a say in the process. Today, with SAPA, you would have to accept whatever management decides.
All good points Stick. I wonder though could Skywest use the union's response as a chance to grow further, while leaving ASA stagnant?
You have used a TERRIBLE example in an effort to illustrate the benefits of ALPA. The first guy should have been fired. And from what i understand if he hadn't have been such a d***bag to his FO he probably wouldn't have turned the CA in. That CA put the FO in a terrible situation! The intern blabs about his stick time and the FO gets fired as well. If it were me i wouldn't risk my career/ticket on someone who treated me like sh*t! CRM!!! Getting a**holes with bad judgment their jobs back it not what ALPA is about. I agree with the other examples. If the one I'm talking about is you then I'm sorry you had to hear it and if my second hand info is wrong then please set me straight with specifics. ALPA is necessary but not perfect. And i agree that the likes of Skywest and others benefit from ALPA negotiations without paying dues.
Whats ironic is you are sounding like the d***bag now. Was the intern flying?
Whats ironic is you are sounding like the d***bag now. Was the intern flying?
yes... again from the information i was given. I'm sorry you feel that i'm d baggish. would you want your family in the back of a plane with a flight student at the controls? Also my ire is more about the pilot in question's attitude than the actual offense and taken in isolation the event itself might have been overlooked. Most people don't loose their jobs over one slip. It's the last straw in a pattern of disagreeable behavior. I'm curious what specifically do you disagree with in my post? Or is it just my tone?
My apologies, your tone came off a bit harsh, but knowing that an intern was flying with pax onboard changes everything.
And now back to skywest and alpa.
like i said this is second hand info so i'll leave it to stick to clarify, however, of all the good things ALPA does i wouldn't throw getting crazy pilots their jobs back into the mix. although i guess "crazy" is highly subjective.
back to SKWA and ALPA. I think they should vote it in. but on a macro scale ALPA's history of taking care of regional pilot's overall interests is not all that good in my view. "just send us your dues and don't cost us any money" was the message i got when i was a "regional" guy.
Representation. . . .whatever. Hire your own representaton (It'll be better). If you are worried about breaking rules, 1) don't break them in the first place and 2) Hire great attorneys that will tortch the FAA or Company you work for, IF you really truely do get in trouble.
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