Tony, I commend you for not wanting to sit idley and complain, however I think Jack Bauer's thread starting posts provide a very interesting look on SAPA processes and accomplishments.
Mr. Bauer has a long list. I can't hope to address them, as they are all in the past, and I wasn't here. We can only move forward and make it better. Naturally, learning the past is important, so as to learn from whatever mistakes were made, so I thank him for documenting what he has.
I've been at the game long enough to know that whatever alphabet soup letters are running the show, there will be the bell curve of 10% who hate it, 10% who love it, and 80% who really don't care.
SAPA has limitations, clearly, but some advantages that aren't in a typical union / company relationship.
Pay wise, let's face it, all the regionals at the first year level are fighting for scraps. Even many of the majors are the same. But, compared to the regional industry pay wise overall, SkyWest is doing fine. I'd like to see us on the top for everything, heck, any employee would like to see their company there.
Is SAPA at least partially to blame / credit for that? Sure. I'm familiar with what many ALPA carriers suffered through with 30% pay cuts (and calling it a success 'cuz it wasn't 45%). SAPA / SkyWest didn't do that.
Never a furlough, no pay cuts. That's big, considering the hardships of the industry.
So, the big complaints, pay wise, seem to be the E120 guys didn't get a pay raise, and the jets did (albiet, tiny). We plan to re-address those issues, but as you know, nothing can be done during the union drive. I'm not confident anything can be done to specifically changing the amount we're paid hourly until the end of the current agreement (2011, I think).
Listen, I've got a lot to absorb to speak confidently on specific SAPA issues, but I'll get there.
I did 7 years at SKYW. Had a great experience there. I voted no to a union twice while I was there. Mostly because I felt that life was already good enough and I didn't want "rock the boat" with management. But over time, I began to see the games management plays:
Schedules and work rules are crap, until a union drive is imminent. Then things start to get good. After the drive fails, things soon go to hell again. Take a look around you. There are some extremely senior pilots finally leaving because they are sick of it too. Even some of the Chief Pilots are bailing out!
Overall, SKYW is a great place to work. But it could be so much better. I think ALPA would make a very positive difference (I'm currently at an ALPA carrier). The work rules at my current airline are so much better than I could have ever imagined.
Mr. Bauer has a long list. I can't hope to address them, as they are all in the past, and I wasn't here. We can only move forward and make it better. Naturally, learning the past is important, so as to learn from whatever mistakes were made, so I thank him for documenting what he has.
I've been at the game long enough to know that whatever alphabet soup letters are running the show, there will be the bell curve of 10% who hate it, 10% who love it, and 80% who really don't care.
SAPA has limitations, clearly, but some advantages that aren't in a typical union / company relationship.
Pay wise, let's face it, all the regionals at the first year level are fighting for scraps. Even many of the majors are the same. But, compared to the regional industry pay wise overall, SkyWest is doing fine. I'd like to see us on the top for everything, heck, any employee would like to see their company there.
Is SAPA at least partially to blame / credit for that? Sure. I'm familiar with what many ALPA carriers suffered through with 30% pay cuts (and calling it a success 'cuz it wasn't 45%). SAPA / SkyWest didn't do that.
Never a furlough, no pay cuts. That's big, considering the hardships of the industry.
So, the big complaints, pay wise, seem to be the E120 guys didn't get a pay raise, and the jets did (albiet, tiny). We plan to re-address those issues, but as you know, nothing can be done during the union drive. I'm not confident anything can be done to specifically changing the amount we're paid hourly until the end of the current agreement (2011, I think).
Listen, I've got a lot to absorb to speak confidently on specific SAPA issues, but I'll get there.
Thanks for asking.
Tony, I know you mean well and I want to believe your intentions are good. There are many just like you who have said what you are saying and made your same case, who later came to a different conclusion than what they did then and what you are now. They initially thought they would be the guy to make sapa work, "the past is behind us and lets really kick this organization into high gear and get something done", "Ive been at a union carrier and know whats up and will apply my knowledge to skywest", "I dont give much credence to the guys who have been around who are crying foul on the current establishment because they are all the "10% who will be unhappy no matter what"....etc etc. Hate to say it but your type has come and gone many times before. Dave Benjamin, who before he left was one of the biggest ProUnion guys on the property. He was one of the most AntiUnion guys the first four years at skywest. His words during those first four years were yours almost verbatim. Alan Walker, was exactly the same, firing shots against Alpa for nearly four years, hes now on the OC. Tony Thompson, who was an assistant Chief pilot in SLC likewise jumped the fence. There are literaly hundreds of others. Because of the turnover rate and the general naivity of many new guys constantly coming onboard there is always a fresh supply of guys like yourself who always think things will change and we need to just give management one more chance and things arent that bad because we are at least somewhat better than Mesa, who is an Alpa carrier...besides if we ask for very much we will break the company and we will all be out of jobs. Let me just say, from a guy who has been here for at least five if not ten times longer than you, its time for change. Please ask yourself why people in your exact shoes promoting your your exact anti-alpa iideas are now voting for Alpa. Make it thoughtful and try to at least give a little credence to those who have been here for a while and have witnessed what we say we have witnessed....that this company has gone down hill and managment hasn't bargained in good faith and that lots of guys have been treated unfairly with no immediate legal representation. That the work rules have slid considerably and there is no accountability of sapa especially at the top, that is the EB, where most decisions are ultimately made, many times without a vote or consideration by the line pilots.
Skywest pilots would be better off with a union and the industry would be better off if Skywest pilots were ALPA.
I'm still trying to figure out how a new hire Skywest pilot who was involved with the union biz when he was an air traffic controller is all the sudden an expert on airline pilot labor relations and is ready and willing to fight a drive to organize the Skywest pilot group. Tony, I really think your making a big mistake. And you'll come to realize that in the days ahead.
"It will take me awhile for me to learn the system, clearly."
While your learning the system you are doing a great disservice to the pilot group you are trying to represent.
"there will be the bell curve of 10% who hate it, 10% who love it, and 80% who really don't care"
Perhaps that how it is with ATC. I doubt that 80% don't care at Skywest and I promise you that 80% DO care at my airline. We didn't get where we are, as an industry, over the years, with 80% not caring....
There's a couple books you should read, Tony, to understand how we got where we are and why. They are called "Flying the Line" I and II.
I've tried to stay out of this Skywest union vote, but some of the things I've read from the anti-ALPA side make me cringe. I just couldn't sit here and not speak my mind as an airline pilot that knows how important my union is. Skywest pilots should vote for ALPA if they want to improve their lot. That's why management doesn't want you to.
SkyWest pilots should be afraid of what management will do if the threat of a union dissappears.
It is no insult to SkyWest management to have a union; merely an additional "thing" on property that the pilots have to ensure certain standards are met.
Anyone at SkyWest who votes no to ALPA is really, really, really making a HUGE mistake, even if they are against ALPA. If you're anti-ALPA, at least get them on property and then in later years (when you decide ALPA is oh-so bad for your company) you can go independent union etc. But get something.
while i think wisconsin is the only one that is better overall, i give the edge to the others. with comparable pay scales having the union protection bumps them up a level over skywest.
Some would say "better" means your company is larger and/or growing, you have multiple codeshares, long-term contracts, fly bigger aircraft, make more money, have more time off, have union protection, a good labor/mgmt relationship, live and work where you want to live, better work rules, etc.
Working at Air Wisconsin I would say that we are no better or worse than Skywest; just different in many ways. What is "better" for me will not be "better" for you, and vice versa.
From my understanding sapa most likely will not exist as it does now (i.e. management funding). The judge will give his final ruling (Mid Nov.) as to weather sapa is a creditable organization to represent pilots.
The rumor I have heard is that the judge is very upset with skywest over the whole thing, I.e. trying to lead him to believe others were the head of sapa etc etc etc.
The fact is skyw tried to play sapa off as a legitimate union under the railway labor act. This judge is not going to allow skyw to continue to fund sapa period. What happens to sapa at that point is anyone’s guess. I think they (sapa) will come to us and try to collect dues. lol Anyhow things are about to change....
Last edited by bla bla bla : 10-27-2007 at 05:42 PM.
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