PDT News and Rumors
04-03-2014, 02:14 PM
#4631
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by FlyingBoiler
I believe the poster on how his checkride went 100%. I believe him because I have had JP for a lot of CQ/checkride events and he's done some of the same things to me (although I took drastically different courses of action in the sim). The original pirep of the checkride has been moderated so if I get a detail wrong or misrepresent anything that happened I am sorry, that is not my intention. I am just trying to offer the OP some insight into what JP wanted to see done (right or wrong). FULL DISCLAIMER: I am not in the training department, I am not an instructor or check airman at Piedmont. Anything I say below is simply to give some context to someone who is obviously lost on where things went downhill on his checkride. It is in no way advice on future CQ rides for PDT people nor a truth... just my GUESS on what the instructor probably was looking for.
First off, almost every time I have had a ride with JP, he has the wrong fuel on the plane when you get in the sim. This is intentional because we continually have people push off the gate with the wrong fuel. The OP caught the wrong fuel which is good, but when the fuel is wrong you don't call dispatch. All you do is call the ops frequency and request a fuel truck to come back. So maybe JP wasn't answering/hearing your calls to "dispatch" because you should have just asked for a fuel truck. Then after you caught the error and he said "ok it's fixed" it wasn't him trying to trip you up again. He's done this with me before and its his way of saving time and moving the lesson along. IE. You caught the error great job, let's keep moving. Whether he changed the fuel on the airplane or not it is ok to assume that the fuel is correct at this point.
Ok so now the OP takes off and is using the KNS to go to the first fix. Great job no problems there, I would have just blown off John if he said you were "dead reckoning" to the fix. I don't know what he is getting at with that but you could always ask for a vector if the KNS/UNS isn't functioning. JP then gave you a vector and you noticed the roll jam. Again great job catching it there. I've had the same thing happen to me... I get the sim trimmed up and then the instructor has to turn me to notice a control jam. If I remember right you completed the non normal checklist and then wanted to return for a straight in to some runway in PHL. Now, I don't remember if you declared an emergency or not, but control malfunctions should be declared an emergency (IMO). HERE is where I think your big mistake came in. JP is HUGE on "good solid CRM" and Capt/Pilot authority. When you declare an emergency the airport is yours. Period. Almost EVERY time with JP, when you declare an emergency and return to the field he will either give you something other than you requested or try to give you delay vectors or try to put you behind another plane etc. All these scenarios will be directed by "ATC" and would prevent you from getting to the airport ASAP. DON'T ACCEPT THOSE. That is the key, that's what he wanted to see. You mention how challenging the approach entry was that you had to walk your partner through how to set it up and fly some complex entry. Kudos on getting the job done, but this is what you should have said: "Negative Philly approach, PDT XYZ has declared an emergency we need vectors DIRECTLY to (the final, the numbers, the ILS etc). Get everyone else out of our way." And then flown your straight in approach. He wants to see the command authority, that you won't be talked into doing something stupid by ATC or a weak Capt. when things hit the fan.
I don't remember the rest of the checkride except the part about ppl walking into props. Again this is another classic JP thing he does (I know because he has done it with me). When the Captain sets the parking he wants you to IMMEDIATELY start your flow and flip off the seatbelt sign. If you take your time and do the flow slowly, then when you turn off the seatbelt sign he will pop the passenger door (as if the flight attendant thought it was the double chime). Again this has happened to me so I've been slow on the flow too. BUT when I did it, I saw the warning light flash, noticed the passenger door and slammed the condition lever to fuel off. Then when JP started yelling at me for shutting down the engine incorrectly I defended myself by saying the door opened and I didn't want to kill people. Big cheesy grin on his face when I said that.
Again, I don't know if any of these things is enough to fail you out of training. I have seen these things pulled in the sim but I never had an unsat because of them and they were hardly mentioned in the debrief. I heard a story on the line once that back in the day JP was flying through some turbulence. He told the flight attendant to sit down and she did. However later in the flight she got up again and then injured herself. JP blames himself for this because he didn't tell her to sit and STAY down. That is why he harps on good solid crm and pilot authority. When I heard that story it sort of makes sense/puts into context why he is the way he is. As a new hire the instructors at PDT are very intimidating. They love to run you down, make you feel worthless, make you feel like you don't deserve to be there and aren't professional. I felt the same way going through indoc as you did (never been treated like less of a professional). However, I had a thick skin and let it roll off my shoulders because I knew that I was a good instrument pilot and never let them make me second guess my decisions.
Everyone on here is absolutely right. Our "AQP" is a joke compared to the other programs out there. This old school mentality does not foster a positive learning environment nor does it make any pilots safer or smarter. Honest to God I was talking to one of our instructors and he said and I quote "Our job isn't to teach." I wish I was joking. PDT doesn't have a training department they have a testing department. If you can get in the sim and fly the approaches and maneuvers to standards you pass. If you can't they don't give you advice on how to do better. This thread is already full of posts describing the difficulty and training environment at PDT. Note to potential new hires. We aren't joking and we aren't exaggerating. It is TOUGH training, the manuals are a mess (say two different things in two different places on the same topic), and the instructors won't cut you any slack.
First off, almost every time I have had a ride with JP, he has the wrong fuel on the plane when you get in the sim. This is intentional because we continually have people push off the gate with the wrong fuel. The OP caught the wrong fuel which is good, but when the fuel is wrong you don't call dispatch. All you do is call the ops frequency and request a fuel truck to come back. So maybe JP wasn't answering/hearing your calls to "dispatch" because you should have just asked for a fuel truck. Then after you caught the error and he said "ok it's fixed" it wasn't him trying to trip you up again. He's done this with me before and its his way of saving time and moving the lesson along. IE. You caught the error great job, let's keep moving. Whether he changed the fuel on the airplane or not it is ok to assume that the fuel is correct at this point.
Ok so now the OP takes off and is using the KNS to go to the first fix. Great job no problems there, I would have just blown off John if he said you were "dead reckoning" to the fix. I don't know what he is getting at with that but you could always ask for a vector if the KNS/UNS isn't functioning. JP then gave you a vector and you noticed the roll jam. Again great job catching it there. I've had the same thing happen to me... I get the sim trimmed up and then the instructor has to turn me to notice a control jam. If I remember right you completed the non normal checklist and then wanted to return for a straight in to some runway in PHL. Now, I don't remember if you declared an emergency or not, but control malfunctions should be declared an emergency (IMO). HERE is where I think your big mistake came in. JP is HUGE on "good solid CRM" and Capt/Pilot authority. When you declare an emergency the airport is yours. Period. Almost EVERY time with JP, when you declare an emergency and return to the field he will either give you something other than you requested or try to give you delay vectors or try to put you behind another plane etc. All these scenarios will be directed by "ATC" and would prevent you from getting to the airport ASAP. DON'T ACCEPT THOSE. That is the key, that's what he wanted to see. You mention how challenging the approach entry was that you had to walk your partner through how to set it up and fly some complex entry. Kudos on getting the job done, but this is what you should have said: "Negative Philly approach, PDT XYZ has declared an emergency we need vectors DIRECTLY to (the final, the numbers, the ILS etc). Get everyone else out of our way." And then flown your straight in approach. He wants to see the command authority, that you won't be talked into doing something stupid by ATC or a weak Capt. when things hit the fan.
I don't remember the rest of the checkride except the part about ppl walking into props. Again this is another classic JP thing he does (I know because he has done it with me). When the Captain sets the parking he wants you to IMMEDIATELY start your flow and flip off the seatbelt sign. If you take your time and do the flow slowly, then when you turn off the seatbelt sign he will pop the passenger door (as if the flight attendant thought it was the double chime). Again this has happened to me so I've been slow on the flow too. BUT when I did it, I saw the warning light flash, noticed the passenger door and slammed the condition lever to fuel off. Then when JP started yelling at me for shutting down the engine incorrectly I defended myself by saying the door opened and I didn't want to kill people. Big cheesy grin on his face when I said that.
Again, I don't know if any of these things is enough to fail you out of training. I have seen these things pulled in the sim but I never had an unsat because of them and they were hardly mentioned in the debrief. I heard a story on the line once that back in the day JP was flying through some turbulence. He told the flight attendant to sit down and she did. However later in the flight she got up again and then injured herself. JP blames himself for this because he didn't tell her to sit and STAY down. That is why he harps on good solid crm and pilot authority. When I heard that story it sort of makes sense/puts into context why he is the way he is. As a new hire the instructors at PDT are very intimidating. They love to run you down, make you feel worthless, make you feel like you don't deserve to be there and aren't professional. I felt the same way going through indoc as you did (never been treated like less of a professional). However, I had a thick skin and let it roll off my shoulders because I knew that I was a good instrument pilot and never let them make me second guess my decisions.
Everyone on here is absolutely right. Our "AQP" is a joke compared to the other programs out there. This old school mentality does not foster a positive learning environment nor does it make any pilots safer or smarter. Honest to God I was talking to one of our instructors and he said and I quote "Our job isn't to teach." I wish I was joking. PDT doesn't have a training department they have a testing department. If you can get in the sim and fly the approaches and maneuvers to standards you pass. If you can't they don't give you advice on how to do better. This thread is already full of posts describing the difficulty and training environment at PDT. Note to potential new hires. We aren't joking and we aren't exaggerating. It is TOUGH training, the manuals are a mess (say two different things in two different places on the same topic), and the instructors won't cut you any slack.
04-03-2014, 02:19 PM
#4632
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 131
Originally Posted by Falcon900pilot
On most applications (especially 121 applications), they WILL ask you "Have you ever failed a training event?" To which (in this case) the answer would be "Yes".
If you don't, you will be required to answer why you were with company X for only 2 months...
I always recommend being completely honest and having them reject you up front, rather than lying, being pulled out of class and having to explain to your next potential employer: "Terminated due to failure to truthfully disclose reasons for prior termination".
If you don't, you will be required to answer why you were with company X for only 2 months...
I always recommend being completely honest and having them reject you up front, rather than lying, being pulled out of class and having to explain to your next potential employer: "Terminated due to failure to truthfully disclose reasons for prior termination".
I resigned part way through initial because I didn't care for the lack of professionalism, lack of standardization and arrogant demeanor of the training dept. I felt it was indicative as to how the company did business and I felt I'd be better off at another carrier....
04-03-2014, 02:34 PM
#4633
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2013
Position: 900LX Captain
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by Magpuller
That's easy enough to explain:
I resigned part way through initial because I didn't care for the lack of professionalism, lack of standardization and arrogant demeanor of the training dept. I felt it was indicative as to how the company did business and I felt I'd be better off at another carrier....
I resigned part way through initial because I didn't care for the lack of professionalism, lack of standardization and arrogant demeanor of the training dept. I felt it was indicative as to how the company did business and I felt I'd be better off at another carrier....
04-03-2014, 03:44 PM
#4634
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 13
An pilot in good standing shows up for a training event. He is well prepared, gets along with everyone, is very humble, and is ready to learn. He has a marginal, but still satisfactory, performance during a sim evaluation.
How should he be treated?
A) "You passed, but there were a few problem areas. Here's how you can improve them..."
B) 20 minutes of high intensity verbal abuse, followed by a begrudging admission that he passed the evaluation.
I have personally witnessed JK choose the second option during a coworker's debrief.
How should he be treated?
A) "You passed, but there were a few problem areas. Here's how you can improve them..."
B) 20 minutes of high intensity verbal abuse, followed by a begrudging admission that he passed the evaluation.
I have personally witnessed JK choose the second option during a coworker's debrief.
04-03-2014, 07:26 PM
#4635
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: CL-65 / Gear Wrangler
Posts: 321
The sad thing is when I tell people at SkyWest about various experiences, my own and 1st hand accounts of others from PDT training, they think I'm just making stuff up. Exaggerating for the sake of one upping any story they could tell.
Case and point, I told a SKW coolaid drinker CA I flew with today about some of the instances of unprofessional behavior, non standard evaluations, and outright dirty tactics employed by the training department against "enemies of the state" and the guy thought I was full of Sh!t...
I had to painstakingly detail the T. O'B case in order to show how screwed up both the training department and mgmt. at PDT are.
The guy just sat there in utter disbelief.
People who have not experienced the culture of PDT and specifically its training department do not understand, we who have been here are NOT MAKING THIS STUFF UP.
As someone who made a break to another 121 with a really classy training department, I'll say this. The problem certainly starts at the top, but, it certainly bleeds all the way down to the bottom of that department.
PDT training is notoriously hard, and it shouldn't be easy. It is a complex airplane which can eat you for lunch, operating in a very challenging, and fast pace environment with little room for errors. BUT, it is also the most unprofessionally administered aviation training program I have subjected myself to. Part 61, 141, 121, and 142 institutions and 3 type ratings later...
Walking away from that place after 3+ years with a squeaky clean PRIA record was a career accomplishment. It can be done, but it's not an easy lift.
Case and point, I told a SKW coolaid drinker CA I flew with today about some of the instances of unprofessional behavior, non standard evaluations, and outright dirty tactics employed by the training department against "enemies of the state" and the guy thought I was full of Sh!t...
I had to painstakingly detail the T. O'B case in order to show how screwed up both the training department and mgmt. at PDT are.
The guy just sat there in utter disbelief.
People who have not experienced the culture of PDT and specifically its training department do not understand, we who have been here are NOT MAKING THIS STUFF UP.
As someone who made a break to another 121 with a really classy training department, I'll say this. The problem certainly starts at the top, but, it certainly bleeds all the way down to the bottom of that department.
PDT training is notoriously hard, and it shouldn't be easy. It is a complex airplane which can eat you for lunch, operating in a very challenging, and fast pace environment with little room for errors. BUT, it is also the most unprofessionally administered aviation training program I have subjected myself to. Part 61, 141, 121, and 142 institutions and 3 type ratings later...
Walking away from that place after 3+ years with a squeaky clean PRIA record was a career accomplishment. It can be done, but it's not an easy lift.
04-03-2014, 08:59 PM
#4636
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,482
I'm sorry you guys have to put up with this. Henson/Piedmont training was challenging but respectful when I worked there. I'm definitely glad I left after putting in my time, though. Making a career out of a dying airline can warp your outlook.
04-04-2014, 09:10 AM
#4637
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 60
True that. JK and MM and JF are all vying for douchebag of the year.
They are all in bed with JC our esteemed POI and company lapdog. Ever notice that the problem is always with the line pilot and not the PDT checking (not training), department.
They are all in bed with JC our esteemed POI and company lapdog. Ever notice that the problem is always with the line pilot and not the PDT checking (not training), department.
04-04-2014, 01:22 PM
#4639
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: E190 Right
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by RadarP3C
If your SITREP for a check ride was for an upgrade, recurrent, or even for someone with 121 experience, you've made some good points. But I think this was being given in intial training with two FO's (no CA in left seat) and no 121 prior experience.
Some of you may know me. I worked for PDT a few years back and after flying at different another regional I was since hired on at a mainline carrier. I personally know the individual that has recounted his training experience. I have known him for years and have seen him grow up from his private pilots license all the way to ATP. He is one of the most genuine, selfless individuals you will ever meet. And apart from being a good person he is a great pilot with good solid experience in medium to large piston twins. I personally can say that he is a good stick. I have flow with him many times. To give you and idea of who this person is as an individual, while flying for an air ambulance operation, he also was involved in Pilots and Paws, and Angle Flight. He recently flew a gentleman up to Cancer Treatment Centers of America for colon cancer on his own dime. A few years ago, while on a 5 day trip I had a family member die and asked him to fly my family down to Atlanta where I would meet them for the funeral. At the time i was in a partnership with old aerostar. He dropped everything he was doing, and a few hours later was in Atlanta. He's the type of person that would give you the shirt off his back. Piedmont lost a good new hire and a good pilot. All of you on the line would like this cat.
I called this individual the other day and asked him if he would join me for lunch so we could talk. I am sad to say that they made a wreck out of this guy. His experience at PDT was unfortunate and unforgivable. He had a lot of good things to say about some of the instructors currently working at PDT and spoke highly of both chief pilots. But after hearing his story it is clear that the training department was after him. He was being abused by one instructor individual and went to the CP as recommended to him by other employess. JK was not happy about this. The situation was supposedly resolved but JK had his way with him in the end. His check ride was a raw deal from the start. I am sure he made some mistakes as any new hire would especially being paired with another new hire. But the way JP conducted the ride is disgraceful. Not to mention both JP and MM was in the sim during this ride. Talk about intimidation. I am trying to give him advice as to how to move forward. I hope he finds his way in to a good airline and I will help him as much as I can.
As for my experience with PDT. It is about the same with everyones post on the site. The intimidation games that are played by the training department are more than childish and are unforgivable. They kick the fear of God in to new hires and anyone else that has to go through training. They take some good pilots and turn them in to scared, stressed out pilots that now get put on the line and lack all sorts of confidence. JP and MM should not be a DE nor an instructor. On a few of my CQ rides I considered calling the FAA on him due to violations of the PTS standards. His flights were so dam unrealistic. Dare you call them out on anything. You most likely will not pass your next recurrent.
I know its hard to believe some of these stories coming out of training but I have been their and most are true. Every time a problem occurs the training department puts on a professional face and makes the victim look like a fool. I over heard one of them saying once to member of management that " its so absurd you can't believe that person" Thats how they get away with it all. The stories are so unbelievable that management would rather listen to the Training Departments version rather than actually fix the problem. JK, MM, and JP all get away with it. They think they run the company and think the they are the official FAA.
I hope the union is working on fixing the problems. PDT had a great union when I was their and I have heard they still have some great people working their. But and a previous post stated "kicking the can down the road" is not the way to continue the operation. Their has been a great injustice committed again.
I feel bad for all my friends that are still at PDT. Flying the line its not that bad but I will tell you once you make the switch to the big guys the difference is black and white. Get your resumes out their. The hiring has just begun.
Happy Flying
04-04-2014, 01:33 PM
#4640
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: E190 Right
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by Survivor
True that. JK and MM and JF are all vying for douchebag of the year.
They are all in bed with JC our esteemed POI and company lapdog. Ever notice that the problem is always with the line pilot and not the PDT checking (not training), department.
They are all in bed with JC our esteemed POI and company lapdog. Ever notice that the problem is always with the line pilot and not the PDT checking (not training), department.
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