The type of Airline Pilots we have become
02-25-2009, 11:05 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 281
Originally Posted by ML64711
this is part of the reason why collectively as an industry pilots cant get anything positive done. Instead of fighting as one against management we chose to get into ****ing contests about flight experience, type ratings, pay scales, shiny aircraft and pilot age. Maybe if half the energy spent on here bashing petty things and each other was used towards a collective good against the people that make lives bad, the industry would slowly become a better place.
02-26-2009, 09:52 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,258
Originally Posted by DublinFlyer
I don't really care what you do as long as you can talk on the radio properly in understandable and correct english. 
02-26-2009, 02:11 PM
#54
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Gear Thrower
Posts: 79
Originally Posted by winglet
Good Post,
I hear you 5 by 5! It's a sign of the times. Ab-Initio training, TCAS, GPWS, moving map GPS, (almost idiot-proof) automated aircraft, multiple-choice exams with answers provided, zero FAA oversight. I'm frustrated as well being forced continuously into playing "unpaid flight instructor". Pilot standards have definitely dropped to an all time low.
Where are the pilots that I used to look up to? The ones that grew up knowing they wanted to fly since their earliest memories? You know, the ones I don't have to explain the differences between a Boeing and an Airbus to? The ones that built their time with experience in a multitude of different aircraft and flying environments? The ones that became airline pilots AFTER building their confidence and competence at night in inadequate little airplanes in questionable weather?
We are living in the post 9/11 airline era where you can go from a over priviledged burned out 25 year old (insert your former dead-end job here) to "airline pilot" in 18 months. Skipping the experience and knowledge that is required for the position. I really shouldn't have to babysit these guys. I'm tiring of teaching aerodynamics, meteorolgy, high altitude aerodynamics, aircraft performance, etc. to these neophytes with the over inflated sense of entitlement. I miss flying with the guys and gals who have previousely explored the full envelope of their aircraft and flying abilities and posess the instincts and thought processes required for the job before they strap on a Part 121 aircraft with passengers in the back.
I'll continue on though because that is what I do. I'll show up to work and once again spend my time aloft explaining complex airspace, correct WX Radar usage, takeoff/landing performance, etc, to another clueless 21 year old 250 hour "ace of the base". I'll once again waste my breath explaining what I thought was common aviation knowledge contained in such obscure publications as the AIM and CFR 14, Part 91, 121 etc. That's my career choice, I guess.
Oh, and for those of you I offended. Good! It means I described what you know is true. Put down the magazine, unplug the I-Pod, skip a drink, and crack a book occasionally. Go read an airplane book (start with an Aircraft Recognition Handbook), build an aviation library, hand fly more often, make a small effort to increase your aviation knowledge, observe the good pilots you fly with, ask yourself what makes them good. Take note of the bad habits of the crappy pilots you fly with and vow not to become like them. Oh and since I'm at it, go and get some quality cross-wind landing instruction and then read "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" or "Fly the Wing" or "Fate is the Hunter", etc.
You'll find that with a continued desire to gain knowledge and experience, and the attempt to be your best, you'll develop the real confidence along with the real competence you've been faking thus far. You're an AIRLINE PILOT, act like one.
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. Now let's all get out there and reclaim the profession.
Winglet Out!
I hear you 5 by 5! It's a sign of the times. Ab-Initio training, TCAS, GPWS, moving map GPS, (almost idiot-proof) automated aircraft, multiple-choice exams with answers provided, zero FAA oversight. I'm frustrated as well being forced continuously into playing "unpaid flight instructor". Pilot standards have definitely dropped to an all time low.
Where are the pilots that I used to look up to? The ones that grew up knowing they wanted to fly since their earliest memories? You know, the ones I don't have to explain the differences between a Boeing and an Airbus to? The ones that built their time with experience in a multitude of different aircraft and flying environments? The ones that became airline pilots AFTER building their confidence and competence at night in inadequate little airplanes in questionable weather?
We are living in the post 9/11 airline era where you can go from a over priviledged burned out 25 year old (insert your former dead-end job here) to "airline pilot" in 18 months. Skipping the experience and knowledge that is required for the position. I really shouldn't have to babysit these guys. I'm tiring of teaching aerodynamics, meteorolgy, high altitude aerodynamics, aircraft performance, etc. to these neophytes with the over inflated sense of entitlement. I miss flying with the guys and gals who have previousely explored the full envelope of their aircraft and flying abilities and posess the instincts and thought processes required for the job before they strap on a Part 121 aircraft with passengers in the back.
I'll continue on though because that is what I do. I'll show up to work and once again spend my time aloft explaining complex airspace, correct WX Radar usage, takeoff/landing performance, etc, to another clueless 21 year old 250 hour "ace of the base". I'll once again waste my breath explaining what I thought was common aviation knowledge contained in such obscure publications as the AIM and CFR 14, Part 91, 121 etc. That's my career choice, I guess.
Oh, and for those of you I offended. Good! It means I described what you know is true. Put down the magazine, unplug the I-Pod, skip a drink, and crack a book occasionally. Go read an airplane book (start with an Aircraft Recognition Handbook), build an aviation library, hand fly more often, make a small effort to increase your aviation knowledge, observe the good pilots you fly with, ask yourself what makes them good. Take note of the bad habits of the crappy pilots you fly with and vow not to become like them. Oh and since I'm at it, go and get some quality cross-wind landing instruction and then read "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" or "Fly the Wing" or "Fate is the Hunter", etc.
You'll find that with a continued desire to gain knowledge and experience, and the attempt to be your best, you'll develop the real confidence along with the real competence you've been faking thus far. You're an AIRLINE PILOT, act like one.
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. Now let's all get out there and reclaim the profession.
Winglet Out!
I'll give you a little background about me...I am a Marine Naval Flight Officer, so my 2000 hours military time to include combat flight time don't mean squat to an airline so I am doing my time getting my "pilot" hours. I will tell you the same thing goes on in the military that you all are seeing in the civilian world with today's generation....the difference is Leadership! I actually taught Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators to Naval Aviators. This is the very first class in their long journey and they are most moldable here. You can put the 250 hour "ace of the base" in their place pretty quickly and not be condescending by pointing to your experience vs. theirs, if they don't get after that then be blunt or gruff as some would say. People who think they are the "god's gift to aviation" are the dangerous ones because the are too inexperienced or stupid to realize their mistakes. When I was the experienced aviator in the squadron I flew with the new pilots to train and mentor them...because they made mistakes. The average Naval Aviator has less than 350 hours when the show up to their operational squadron and they still need training from the senior aviators in the squadron. It is the senior's responsibility to train the new guy.
There is a reason both the civilian and military world work in the building block approach and 121 operators don't just put a 500 hour guy in the Left seat..the same goes in the military even in single seat fighters, you start as a wing man and work up from there.
I guess I am just reiterating some of your point and that I do not agree with your attitude that is is not your job as the Captain and Mentor to flight instruct in the cockpit. When guys don't know the answers tell them to get in the books, because they need to as a PROFESSIONAL Pilot. If they don't feel they should get in the books then tell them point blank to find a new line of work. You would be supised, you may not see it, but your peers might the next time they fly with the guy. I can tell you they will appreciate it. Remember we all once had 250 hours!
Semper Fly,
Donk
02-26-2009, 03:55 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 467
Donk 74,
Thanks for the reply. I agree with you 100% and I talk about the lost art of mentoring often. I can tell that you have a background that would indicate that you are one of the exeptions to the rule and as you progress in your airline career you'll begin to see what I see.
I was and always will be a flight instructor at heart. Believe it or not I do remember when I was an FO and the Captains I admired most were the highly experienced and patient mentors who went above and beyond breaking me in. I vowed at that time that I would always be a professional and a mentor to the new guys.
I realize that there are some excellent pilots still coming up and I'm generalizing but the "new generation" of pilot I'm lamenting about and the trend I see is the growing number of totally unprepared newhires that I've been flying with over the last few years. I'm not talking about being unproficient at 121 operations and unfamiliarity with company's procedures. I'm talking about a lack of the most basic aviation fundamentals.
These people are supposedly commercial multi-engine instrument pilots and I'm often shocked at the total lack of understanding of the rules, regulations and weak flying skills. I often wonder if I'm not paired up with imposters. What concerns me even more is that these people don't seem to really care about their lack of knowledge. I guess they only have their peers to compare themselves to.
I do worry about my chosen profession and I'm only voicing my concern over the lack of professionalism and aviation knowledge displayed to me daily. The huge demand for regional pilots over the last few years and the lack of oversight by the FAA has allowed a flood of unqualified people into the airlines. It was a challenge for me and my peers to get into the airlines. It now seems as though there are no filters
I hear alot about airline pilots not getting any respect anymore and that we are losing pay and benefits because we are not valued. I suggest that we were once respected and valued because we presented ourselves better.
I don't expect many to understand what I'm talking about because they haven't witnessed this trend over a period of time. My intent is not to insult but to do exactly what you suggest; get "gruff." I'm no Chuck Yeager believe me but I shouldn't have to explain the pitch/power relationship or L/D Max or how to read METARs and TAFs etc. to a Part 121 pilot.
I often get recently upgraded Captains that I have previously flown with call and tell me that they appreciate what I did for them and that they now know exactly what I'm talking about concerning the slackers out there. When you are a good FO you don't see the laziness of your peers. If you are a good pilot and upgrade you'll say to yourself, "Oh, now I see exactly what that old tool "Grandpa" Winglet was talking about".
Here's me being gruff: Crack the books boys and girls. Make an attempt to gain the missing knowledge and skills the ticket factory you came from cheated you out of. You may just need them some day.
How's that Donk 74?
Good FO's make good Captains
Winglet
Thanks for the reply. I agree with you 100% and I talk about the lost art of mentoring often. I can tell that you have a background that would indicate that you are one of the exeptions to the rule and as you progress in your airline career you'll begin to see what I see.
I was and always will be a flight instructor at heart. Believe it or not I do remember when I was an FO and the Captains I admired most were the highly experienced and patient mentors who went above and beyond breaking me in. I vowed at that time that I would always be a professional and a mentor to the new guys.
I realize that there are some excellent pilots still coming up and I'm generalizing but the "new generation" of pilot I'm lamenting about and the trend I see is the growing number of totally unprepared newhires that I've been flying with over the last few years. I'm not talking about being unproficient at 121 operations and unfamiliarity with company's procedures. I'm talking about a lack of the most basic aviation fundamentals.
These people are supposedly commercial multi-engine instrument pilots and I'm often shocked at the total lack of understanding of the rules, regulations and weak flying skills. I often wonder if I'm not paired up with imposters. What concerns me even more is that these people don't seem to really care about their lack of knowledge. I guess they only have their peers to compare themselves to.
I do worry about my chosen profession and I'm only voicing my concern over the lack of professionalism and aviation knowledge displayed to me daily. The huge demand for regional pilots over the last few years and the lack of oversight by the FAA has allowed a flood of unqualified people into the airlines. It was a challenge for me and my peers to get into the airlines. It now seems as though there are no filters
I hear alot about airline pilots not getting any respect anymore and that we are losing pay and benefits because we are not valued. I suggest that we were once respected and valued because we presented ourselves better.
I don't expect many to understand what I'm talking about because they haven't witnessed this trend over a period of time. My intent is not to insult but to do exactly what you suggest; get "gruff." I'm no Chuck Yeager believe me but I shouldn't have to explain the pitch/power relationship or L/D Max or how to read METARs and TAFs etc. to a Part 121 pilot.
I often get recently upgraded Captains that I have previously flown with call and tell me that they appreciate what I did for them and that they now know exactly what I'm talking about concerning the slackers out there. When you are a good FO you don't see the laziness of your peers. If you are a good pilot and upgrade you'll say to yourself, "Oh, now I see exactly what that old tool "Grandpa" Winglet was talking about".
Here's me being gruff: Crack the books boys and girls. Make an attempt to gain the missing knowledge and skills the ticket factory you came from cheated you out of. You may just need them some day.
How's that Donk 74?
Good FO's make good Captains
Winglet
02-27-2009, 10:18 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 73N
Posts: 859
Originally Posted by winglet
Donk 74,
Thanks for the reply. I agree with you 100% and I talk about the lost art of mentoring often. I can tell that you have a background that would indicate that you are one of the exeptions to the rule and as you progress in your airline career you'll begin to see what I see.
I was and always will be a flight instructor at heart. Believe it or not I do remember when I was an FO and the Captains I admired most were the highly experienced and patient mentors who went above and beyond breaking me in. I vowed at that time that I would always be a professional and a mentor to the new guys.
I realize that there are some excellent pilots still coming up and I'm generalizing but the "new generation" of pilot I'm lamenting about and the trend I see is the growing number of totally unprepared newhires that I've been flying with over the last few years. I'm not talking about being unproficient at 121 operations and unfamiliarity with company's procedures. I'm talking about a lack of the most basic aviation fundamentals.
These people are supposedly commercial multi-engine instrument pilots and I'm often shocked at the total lack of understanding of the rules, regulations and weak flying skills. I often wonder if I'm not paired up with imposters. What concerns me even more is that these people don't seem to really care about their lack of knowledge. I guess they only have their peers to compare themselves to.
I do worry about my chosen profession and I'm only voicing my concern over the lack of professionalism and aviation knowledge displayed to me daily. The huge demand for regional pilots over the last few years and the lack of oversight by the FAA has allowed a flood of unqualified people into the airlines. It was a challenge for me and my peers to get into the airlines. It now seems as though there are no filters
I hear alot about airline pilots not getting any respect anymore and that we are losing pay and benefits because we are not valued. I suggest that we were once respected and valued because we presented ourselves better.
I don't expect many to understand what I'm talking about because they haven't witnessed this trend over a period of time. My intent is not to insult but to do exactly what you suggest; get "gruff." I'm no Chuck Yeager believe me but I shouldn't have to explain the pitch/power relationship or L/D Max or how to read METARs and TAFs etc. to a Part 121 pilot.
I often get recently upgraded Captains that I have previously flown with call and tell me that they appreciate what I did for them and that they now know exactly what I'm talking about concerning the slackers out there. When you are a good FO you don't see the laziness of your peers. If you are a good pilot and upgrade you'll say to yourself, "Oh, now I see exactly what that old tool "Grandpa" Winglet was talking about".
Here's me being gruff: Crack the books boys and girls. Make an attempt to gain the missing knowledge and skills the ticket factory you came from cheated you out of. You may just need them some day.
How's that Donk 74?
Good FO's make good Captains
Winglet
Thanks for the reply. I agree with you 100% and I talk about the lost art of mentoring often. I can tell that you have a background that would indicate that you are one of the exeptions to the rule and as you progress in your airline career you'll begin to see what I see.
I was and always will be a flight instructor at heart. Believe it or not I do remember when I was an FO and the Captains I admired most were the highly experienced and patient mentors who went above and beyond breaking me in. I vowed at that time that I would always be a professional and a mentor to the new guys.
I realize that there are some excellent pilots still coming up and I'm generalizing but the "new generation" of pilot I'm lamenting about and the trend I see is the growing number of totally unprepared newhires that I've been flying with over the last few years. I'm not talking about being unproficient at 121 operations and unfamiliarity with company's procedures. I'm talking about a lack of the most basic aviation fundamentals.
These people are supposedly commercial multi-engine instrument pilots and I'm often shocked at the total lack of understanding of the rules, regulations and weak flying skills. I often wonder if I'm not paired up with imposters. What concerns me even more is that these people don't seem to really care about their lack of knowledge. I guess they only have their peers to compare themselves to.
I do worry about my chosen profession and I'm only voicing my concern over the lack of professionalism and aviation knowledge displayed to me daily. The huge demand for regional pilots over the last few years and the lack of oversight by the FAA has allowed a flood of unqualified people into the airlines. It was a challenge for me and my peers to get into the airlines. It now seems as though there are no filters
I hear alot about airline pilots not getting any respect anymore and that we are losing pay and benefits because we are not valued. I suggest that we were once respected and valued because we presented ourselves better.
I don't expect many to understand what I'm talking about because they haven't witnessed this trend over a period of time. My intent is not to insult but to do exactly what you suggest; get "gruff." I'm no Chuck Yeager believe me but I shouldn't have to explain the pitch/power relationship or L/D Max or how to read METARs and TAFs etc. to a Part 121 pilot.
I often get recently upgraded Captains that I have previously flown with call and tell me that they appreciate what I did for them and that they now know exactly what I'm talking about concerning the slackers out there. When you are a good FO you don't see the laziness of your peers. If you are a good pilot and upgrade you'll say to yourself, "Oh, now I see exactly what that old tool "Grandpa" Winglet was talking about".
Here's me being gruff: Crack the books boys and girls. Make an attempt to gain the missing knowledge and skills the ticket factory you came from cheated you out of. You may just need them some day.
How's that Donk 74?
Good FO's make good Captains
Winglet
02-27-2009, 06:34 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by nyalex
The type of person described in the first post is an idol? Said things so crazy people stormed out of the room? You don't have to be a dick to get the job done. Call me crazy, but I'd rather not fly with Tommy Tuffnuts.
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