I've seen what the "intense" medical and phsycological exams produce, not all that impressed. Second, My last batch of students left in March to do thier frozen atpl, they'll be back in late september to finish the program. Far less than 2 years. All said and done about one year from nothing to frozen ATPL and JAA CPL and MCL.
I don't know why I need to keep validating myself. Anyway, I looked it up, 5k euro that I mentioned before ended up being a little high, but 4k was possible with 3.5k about average I'd say. I'm sure there are some undesirable jobs but for the most part the work rules and QoL are unquestionably better.
Herman, you mentioned 10 years ago, is it possible things may be a little different now? The company I work for have CFIs over in Europe that are making alot more than what you mentioned for airline pay.
Last edited by pagey : 05-24-2009 at 09:16 PM.
Reason: Last part
ok,but you are just mentioning what they are paying for the frozen ATPL that is those 12 last exams after have done the whole or most part of the program with you.
How much have they paid you or at your school for the program?
Put that together with the 4K Euros for the Frozen ATPL
so what is the total cost?
and that is the cheap way of doing it. Coming over to the US to do a JAA approved program and complete it with the ATPL exams in Europe.
The pilots that have to do it all from scratch in Europe pays at least 70k Euros
0 time to 250 Hr CPL-SEl-MEL ATPL-Frozen. And it takes much more than a year if you do it all in Europe.
If you are not impressed by the Medicals in Europe then why dont you go and do one and see if you pass.
Also, Show me an example, just one of a small regional commuter airline in Europe that pays you 75 hours minimum guarantee and uses you just a few hour for it.
Show one Commuter company in Europe that approves you to take longer leave and keep your bennefits and seniority...
I can go on and on
You need to validate yourself until you have lived and worked as a regional (commuter) pilot in Europe,
If you have not done that then you are just guessing.
I've seen what the "intense" medical and phsycological exams produce, not all that impressed. Second, My last batch of students left in March to do thier frozen atpl, they'll be back in late september to finish the program. Far less than 2 years. All said and done about one year from nothing to frozen ATPL and JAA CPL and MCL.
I don't know why I need to keep validating myself. Anyway, I looked it up, 5k euro that I mentioned before ended up being a little high, but 4k was possible with 3.5k about average I'd say. I'm sure there are some undesirable jobs but for the most part the work rules and QoL are unquestionably better.
Herman, you mentioned 10 years ago, is it possible things may be a little different now? The company I work for have CFIs over in Europe that are making alot more than what you mentioned for airline pay.
Yes, It has been 10 years since I started but not 10 since I left but you are right that they may be paying a litle better now but I do not believe the change would be much.
Like I said, the spectrum is wide in Europe and you cannot call a company that flies wide body in a region within Europe for a Commuter. I am talking about the small Commuter companies flying 19 - 50 seat configuration. CFI's in Europe makes much more than Commuter pilots exactly like many CFI's in the US makes more than first year FO at a Regional.
I understand you work for a company that have European students. Remember that these students are in the start of their path and they are dreamers that are extremly positive about their future in Europe. They dont have a clue yet of the reality that awaits them. They may tell you all kind of things but they have never worked as pilots yet if they ever will so take what they tell you about Europe with a lot of salt.
I have the European CPL-ATPL Frozen, (relativ) strong experience (over 1000 hour turbine and over 2000 hours TT) clean records in Europe and the US and I can tell you that I would never return to Europe to work as a pilot.
The reality will fall in your students faces like an elefant falling from the sky. Not many will ever succed with their career in Europe. The Europe pilot market is a nightmare comparing with the US. Anyone that says different is starting and wants to believe or do not know.
I'm talking about the whole program, including frozen ATPL and all flight time. 1 year. All of which is included in the original price.
As far as what it is really like over there im not going to fight you on it, all I know is what I read from the regs JAR FCL, which is alot more pilot friendly.
My first airline job was with Crossair, part of the Swissair group. It was not a true 'regional' airline for a few reasons (sold their own tickets, had a bunch of MD-80s, etc.), but for the sake of argument we'll group it in because they operated a bunch of so-called 'regional' airplanes.
The pay was different. It was based on longevity and had nothing to do with which A/C one was assigned. There really wasn't a 'senior' airplane, though the MD-80 did tend to have the more senior pilots. But there were also folks on the SAAB2000 who could have flown the MD-80 from the left seat, but chose not to for various reasons.
The pay was also a salaried one, not based on hours per month. For better or worse, that's how it was.
Every pilot was assigned about 4 or 5 RSV days per month. There was no group of RSV pilots. But everyone pretty much lived near their domicile anyway, so it wasn't a big deal. Most RSV days were days off.
But ultimately this is all small change. The biggest difference was operationally. There was simply no comparison. US carriers seem to operate on a shoestring budget and it shows at all levels. Ramps are filthy, rampers are often untrained, operations areas are dirty and badly organized, equipment is missing or broken, etc. This was not the case over there.
Not that there weren't problems. There were and two fatal accidents resulted. The first one was shoddy record checking on some Russian pilots who were hired when the company was desperate for pilots. The second was the result of letting a weak, but very senior pilot, slip through the cracks every 6 months.
Sound familiar?
So, there were similarities and differences. Which did I like better? The Swiss place. But I can't go back without my work permit.....
That said, there are some nice things here in the US as well.
But really the standard there was higher operationally and with how the employees were treated by the management. We weren't treated as the enemy, as is often the case with US regional carriers.
__________________
I am CRJ captain. Hear me roar.
SUBPART Q
European FLIGHT AND DUTY TIME LIMITATIONS AND REST REQUIREMENTS
OPS 1.1100
Flight and duty limitations
1.1. Cumulative duty hours
An operator shall ensure that the total duty periods to which a crew member is assigned do not exceed:
(a) 190 duty hours in any 28 consecutive days, spread as evenly as practicable throughout this period; and
(b) 60 duty hours in any seven consecutive days.
1.2. Limit on total block times
An operator shall ensure that the total block times of the flights on which an individual crew member is assigned as an operating crew member does not exceed
(a) 900 block hours in a calendar year;
(b) 100 block hours in any 28 consecutive days.
1.3. The maximum basic daily FDP*** is 13 hours. (***Flight Duty Period:
A Flight Duty Period (FDP) is any time during which a person operates in an aircraft as a member of its crew. The FDP starts when the crew member is required by an operator to report for a flight or a series of flights; it finishes at the end of the last flight on which he/she is an operating crew member.***)
1.4. These 13 hours will be reduced by 30 minutes for each sector from the third sector onwards with a maximum total reduction of two hours.
1.5. When the FDP starts in the WOCL, the maximum stated in point 1.3 and point
1.4 will be reduced by 100% of its encroachment up to a maximum of two hours. When the FDP ends in or fully encompasses the WOCL, the maximum FDP stated in point 1.3 and point 1.4 will be reduced by 50% of its encroachment.
2. Extensions:
2.1. The maximum daily FDP can be extended by up to one hour.
2.2. Extensions are not allowed for a basic FDP of 6 sectors or more.
2.3. Where an FDP encroaches on the WOCL by up to two hours extensions
are limited to up to four sectors.
2.4. Where an FDP encroaches on the WOCL by more than two hours extensions are limited to up to two sectors.
2.5. The maximum number of extensions is two in any 7 consecutive days.
2.6. Where an FDP is planned to use an extension pre and post flight minimum rest is increased by two hours or post flight rest only is increased by four hours. Where the extensions are used for consecutive FDPs the pre and post rest between the two operations shall run consecutively.
2.7. When an FDP with extension starts in the period 22:00 to 04:59 hours the operator will limit the FDP to 11.45 hours.
OPS 1.1110
Rest
1. Minimum rest
1.1. The minimum rest which must be provided before undertaking a flight duty period starting at home base shall be at least as long as the preceding duty period or 12 hours whichever is the greater;
1.2. The minimum rest which must be provided before undertaking a flight duty period starting away from home base shall be at least as long as the preceding duty period or 10 hours whichever is the greater; when on minimum rest away from home base, the operator must allow for an 8 hour sleep opportunity taking due account of travelling and other physiological needs;
1.3. An operator will ensure that effects on crew members of time zone differences will be compensated by additional rest, as regulated by the Authority subject to the provisions of Article 8.
1.4.1. Notwithstanding 1.1 and 1.2 and subject to the provisions of Article 8, the Authority may grant reduced rest arrangements.
1.4.2. Each operator will have to demonstrate to the Authority, using operational experience and taking into account other relevant factors, such as current scientific knowledge, that its request for reduced rest arrangements produces an equivalent level of safety.
2. Rest periods
2.1. An operator shall ensure that the minimum rest provided as outlined above is increased periodically to a weekly rest period, being a 36-hour period including two local nights, such that there shall never be more than 168 hours between the end of one weekly rest period and the start of the next. As an exception to OPS 1.1095 point 1.9, the Authority may decide that the second of those local nights may start from 20:00 hours if the weekly rest period has a duration of at least 40 hours.
OPS 1.1120
Unforeseen circumstances in actual flight operations - commander's discretion
1. Taking into account the need for careful control of these instances implied underneath, during the actual flight operation, which starts at the reporting time, the limits on flight duty, duty and rest periods prescribed in this Subpart may be modified in the event of unforeseen circumstances. Any such modifications must be acceptable to the commander after consultation with all other crew members and must, in all circumstances, comply with the following:
1.1. The maximum FDP referred to in OPS 1.1105 point 1.3 above may not be increased by more than two hours unless the flight crew has been augmented, in which case the maximum flight duty period may be increased by not more than 3 hours;
1.1.2. If on the final sector within a FDP unforeseen circumstances occur after take off that will result in the permitted increase being exceeded, the flight may continue to the planned destination or alternate;
1.1.3. In the event of such circumstances, the rest period following the FDP may be reduced but never below the minimum rest defined in OPS 1.1110 point 1.2 of this Subpart;
1.2. The Commander shall, in case of special circumstances, which could lead to severe fatigue, and after consultation with the crew members affected, reduce the actual flight duty time and/or increase the rest time in order to eliminate any detrimental effect on flight safety;
1.3. An operator shall ensure that:
1.3.1. The Commander submits a report to the operator whenever a FDP is increased by his/her discretion or when a rest period is reduced in actual operation and
1.3.2. Where the increase of a FDP or reduction of a rest period exceeds one hour, a copy of the report, to which the operator must add his comments, is sent to the Authority no later than 28 days after the event.
OPS 1.1125
Standby
1. Airport Standby
1.1. A crew member is on airport standby from reporting at the normal report point until the end of the notified standby period.
1.2. Airport standby will count in full for the purposes of cumulative duty hours.
1.3. Where airport standby is immediately followed by a flight duty, the relationship between such airport standby and the assigned flight duty shall be defined by the Authority. In such a case, airport standby shall be added to the duty period referred to in OPS 1.1110 under points 1.1 and 1.2 for the purposes of calculating minimum rest.
1.4. Where the airport standby does not lead to assignment on a flight duty, it shall be followed at least by a rest period as regulated by the Authority.
1.5. While on airport standby the operator will provide to the crew member a quiet and comfortable place not open to the public.
2. Other forms of standby (including standby at hotel)
2.1. Subject to the provisions of Article 8, all other forms of standby shall be regulated by the Authority, taking into account the following:
2.1.1. All activity shall be rostered and/or notified in advance.
2.1.2. The start and end time of the standby shall be defined and notified in advance.
2.1.3. The maximum length of any standby at a place other than a specified reporting point shall be determined.
2.1.4. Taking into account facilities available for the crew member to rest and other relevant factors, the relationship between the standby and any assigned flight duty resulting from the standby shall be defined.
2.1.5. The counting of standby times for the purposes of cumulative duty hours shall be defined.
OPS 1.1130
Nutrition
A meal and drink opportunity must occur in order to avoid any detriment to a crew member's performance, especially when the FDP exceeds 6 hours.
OPS 1.1135
Flight duty, duty and rest period records
1. An operator shall ensure that crew member's records include:
(a) block times;
(b) start, duration and end of each duty or flight duty periods;
(c) rest periods and days free of all duties;
and are maintained to ensure compliance with the requirements of this Subpart; copies of these records will be made available to the crew member upon request.
2. If the records held by the operator under paragraph 1 do not cover all of his/her flight duty, duty and rest periods, the crew member concerned shall maintain an individual record of his/her
(a) block times;
(b) start, duration and end of each duty or flight duty periods; and
(c) rest periods and days free of all duties.
3. A crew member shall present his/her records on request to any operator who employs his/her services before he/she commences a flight duty period.
4. Records shall be preserved for at least 15 calendar months from the date of the last relevant entry or longer if required in accordance with national laws.
5. Additionally, operators shall separately retain all aircraft commander's discretion reports of extended flight duty periods, extended flight hours and reduced rest periods for at least six months after the event.
The pay was also a salaried one, not based on hours per month. For better or worse, that's how it was.
But really the standard there was higher operationally and with how the employees were treated by the management. We weren't treated as the enemy, as is often the case with US regional carriers.
This is what I was getting at. There is alot to be gained I think when management and pilot groups can work together instead of detesting one another. Although It seems like I am telling one extereme and herman the other. The true case is more likely somewhere in the middle.
LinkBacks (?)
Linear Mode
