My point was that it doesn't really matter. Either you fall under one category or the other. But either way, you will have to have an ATP. The only difference is that if you are "prospective flight crewmember" you need it to apply. If you are "all flight crewmembers" you have three years from the date of enactment to get it. I don't see any grandfathering in the language in that even if you are currently employed, you still need to get it in three years.
I think I disagree with you on the point in bold. I just reread the portion of the bill pertaining to minimum requirements. Unless I missed it, the proposal says nothing about prospective crewmembers needing an ATP at this point. What I think the rule states is that there will be a three year grace period for airlines. In other words, pilots can be hired in the first three years without and ATP, but after that pilots must have an ATP. Those hired in the three year period must obtain an ATP by the end of the three year period. I think they're creating a grace period to ease the transition.
(a) Requirements-
(1) RULEMAKING PROCEEDING- The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall conduct a rulemaking proceeding to require part 121 air carriers to develop and implement means and methods for ensuring that flight crewmembers have proper qualifications and experience.
(2) MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS-
(A) PROSPECTIVE FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS- Rules issued under paragraph (1) shall ensure that prospective flight crewmembers undergo comprehensive pre-employment screening, including an assessment of the skills, aptitudes, airmanship, and suitability of each applicant for a position as a flight crewmember in terms of functioning effectively in the air carrier's operational environment.
(B) ALL FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS- Rules issued under paragraph (1) shall ensure that, after the date that is 3 years after the date of enactment of this Act, all flight crewmembers--
(i) have obtained an airline transport pilot license under part 61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations; and
(ii) have appropriate multi-engine aircraft flight experience, as determined by the Administrator
When hiring resumes in 2012, 3 years from now all "prospective crew members" will need an ATP certificate. How the heck is any regional paying $20,000/year going to find an individual wanting to work for that rate?
2012 will begin the flush of regional pilots to the majors leaving regional airlines with nothing left and no qualified pilots to hire. Looks like they are going to need to raise the bar significantly.
As I wrote earlier, anyone who thinks pay is going to increase due to this is mistaken. The only way that will occur is if the airlines significantly increase ticket prices. Considering US airlines compete on price and we're going through a tough recession, that's not likely to happen ever.
As I wrote earlier, anyone who thinks pay is going to increase due to this is mistaken. The only way that will occur is if the airlines significantly increase ticket prices. Considering US airlines compete on price and we're going through a tough recession, that's not likely to happen ever.
With airlines consolidating and less competition on the rise, what's to say that airlines will not raise their prices as the economy slowly recovers?
If regional pay will not increase, who will fill the right seat on the turboprop regional jets at $20,000/yr that possesses an ATP ticket?
As I wrote earlier, anyone who thinks pay is going to increase due to this is mistaken. The only way that will occur is if the airlines significantly increase ticket prices. Considering US airlines compete on price and we're going through a tough recession, that's not likely to happen ever.
It's easy for this to happen. If every ticket was raised by $5, on a 50 seat jet, that's $250. You now have a 'crew surcharge'.
I think I disagree with you on the point in bold. I just reread the portion of the bill pertaining to minimum requirements. Unless I missed it, the proposal says nothing about prospective crewmembers needing an ATP at this point. What I think the rule states is that there will be a three year grace period for airlines. In other words, pilots can be hired in the first three years without and ATP, but after that pilots must have an ATP. Those hired in the three year period must obtain an ATP by the end of the three year period. I think they're creating a grace period to ease the transition.
They are just mandating the FAA have this rule enforced within 3 years. It is up to the FAA to decide who is grandfathered in and when.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker77
As I wrote earlier, anyone who thinks pay is going to increase due to this is mistaken. The only way that will occur is if the airlines significantly increase ticket prices. Considering US airlines compete on price and we're going through a tough recession, that's not likely to happen ever.
There is a lot of good math on page 6 of the discussion about the rule itself. Similar to what Diver said I don't think it will bring the industry to a hault if every pax pays another $3/hr/flt (2 for capt, 1 for f/o). At 70% loads thats $35/hr raise for the f/os and $70/hr raise for the capt on a 50 seater...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver Driver
It's easy for this to happen. If every ticket was raised by $5, on a 50 seat jet, that's $250. You now have a 'crew surcharge'.
__________________
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I think I disagree with you on the point in bold. I just reread the portion of the bill pertaining to minimum requirements. Unless I missed it, the proposal says nothing about prospective crewmembers needing an ATP at this point. What I think the rule states is that there will be a three year grace period for airlines. In other words, pilots can be hired in the first three years without and ATP, but after that pilots must have an ATP. Those hired in the three year period must obtain an ATP by the end of the three year period. I think they're creating a grace period to ease the transition.
You could be right. But like I wrote previously, either way, you will have to have an ATP and that was the jist of the answer to the original question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyjaydawg
They are just mandating the FAA have this rule enforced within 3 years. It is up to the FAA to decide who is grandfathered in and when.
The bill makes it pretty clear to me that there is no grandfathering. Everyone will eventually have to have an ATP within 3 years of enactment regardless if you already work for a part 121 air carrier. The FAA cannot promulgate regulations that go against a law.
The bill makes it pretty clear to me that there is no grandfathering. Everyone will eventually have to have an ATP within 3 years of enactment regardless if you already work for a part 121 air carrier. The FAA cannot promulgate regulations that go against a law.
I agree, by 'grandfathering' I mean letting the airlines have 3 years before their current employees must comply. Whereas the FAA has the leeway to make all newhires comply at DOH
__________________
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter accusations.
As I wrote earlier, anyone who thinks pay is going to increase due to this is mistaken. The only way that will occur is if the airlines significantly increase ticket prices. Considering US airlines compete on price and we're going through a tough recession, that's not likely to happen ever.
I respectfully disagree with you. Remember the shortage two or three years ago? Junior assignments and open time pay went to 200% at some carriers. I specifically remember hearing one story where one guy refused to do a trip unless they gave him triple pay. Also, certain carriers were offering a bonus program for aircraft qualified crewmembers.
Keep in mind this was back in the day when they had trouble filling seats with 250 hours wonders. With that said, when this legislation passes and the need for crewmembers happens again, these special offers to employees will come back again, but it will not be enough. Pay will have to increase to attract crewmembers. Ticket prices will have to eventually go up.
The race will change.. it won't be the race to the bottom anymore; it will be the race to running an airline most efficiently with limited resources.
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That's one way to do it. Or the CEOs can take a pay cut!
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