There is a bigger issue that hasn't been addressed. In one way, Toliet Duck is right that there are technically "rules" in place so that no one should ever fly fatigued, ever.
The reality is that there is an inherent flaw in scheduling practices that I think everyone agrees, are outdated, The problem is that you are then expecting an exhausted person to recognize that they are fatigued. The number one problem with fatigue is that, when you are fatigued, chances are you are too tired to recognize this fact and act responsibly. How many times has the conversation in the van ride to the hotel included a statement that both pilots were are exhausted and shouldn't have flown?
The rules we have now are outdated. "Real" carriers that have work rules that are more conservative than the FAR's realize this, why else would there be a need to negotiate more rest or more restrictive duty guidelines? Other carriers, most regionals, have the majority of their work rules based in regulation. Everyone recognizes that these rules are outdated, even the FAA, obviously.
Just because there is a rule does not mean that there is adequate protection against error. Rules are broken every day, knowingly or unknowingly. If this rule were not flawed, I don't think that the NTSB would have had it on the top 10 most wanted list for so long. If we can make things safer by providing more rest and shorter duty periods, why would anyone be opposed? We add additional levels of safety that are not required by regulation to all aspects of our operations, but companies balk at these rules for economic reasons and staffing considerations. The point is that this isn't acceptable. As it stands now, airlines, regionals especially, do not do anything to mitigate the risk of fatigue. If anything scheduling practices encourage it. Fatigue calls shouldn't be the issue, because that will happen with or without new rules. The real issue is that the industry as a whole does not want to raise the bar because it will cost them money. Greed is what perpetuates the 8 hour reduced rest overnight.
Doesn't matter who picks up the phone. Why are you consistently trying to make a point that a pilot can't call fatigue? Are you saying you've flown fatigued becauseyou didn't want to tell the company?
I'm sorry, but if you've been in the regionals you can't tell me you've NEVER flown fatigued before.
Sorry man, I just won't buy it. You can try to justify/explain it all you want, but I just won't believe you.
Again, sorry.
And I'm not saying that pilot can't call fatigue, but most managements make it too much of a pita to do, or fear the backlash, whatever. And the post by mustache sums it up pretty well, often you don't know you're fatigued till you've already started the trip.
I can't tell you how many times I've had a 430 am ET wake up (I'm on MT) for a 3 hour flight. I'm bright eyed and bushy tailed till cruise, then it's a battle to stay awake. And I can safely say I'm not the only pilot that's had that issue.
The reality is that there is an inherent flaw in scheduling practices that I think everyone agrees, are outdated, The problem is that you are then expecting an exhausted person to recognize that they are fatigued. The number one problem with fatigue is that, when you are fatigued, chances are you are too tired to recognize this fact and act responsibly. How many times has the conversation in the van ride to the hotel included a statement that both pilots were are exhausted and shouldn't have flown?
The rules we have now are outdated. "Real" carriers that have work rules that are more conservative than the FAR's realize this, why else would there be a need to negotiate more rest or more restrictive duty guidelines? Other carriers, most regionals, have the majority of their work rules based in regulation. Everyone recognizes that these rules are outdated, even the FAA, obviously
I agree, but it's important to recognize that we need reform because the practical studies and the science have demonstrated that the current rules can be conducive to a fatigue state, when the companies attempt to maximize productivity beyond the proven limitations yet staying legal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustache ride
Just because there is a rule does not mean that there is adequate protection against error. Rules are broken every day, knowingly or unknowingly. If this rule were not flawed, I don't think that the NTSB would have had it on the top 10 most wanted list for so long. If we can make things safer by providing more rest and shorter duty periods, why would anyone be opposed? We add additional levels of safety that are not required by regulation to all aspects of our operations, but companies balk at these rules for economic reasons and staffing considerations. The point is that this isn't acceptable. As it stands now, airlines, regionals especially, do not do anything to mitigate the risk of fatigue. If anything scheduling practices encourage it. Fatigue calls shouldn't be the issue, because that will happen with or without new rules. The real issue is that the industry as a whole does not want to raise the bar because it will cost them money. Greed is what perpetuates the 8 hour reduced rest overnight.
Once again I agree with you 150%. It's important for all of us to recognize that this is a very complex issue that requires not just revisiting the current regulations, but addressing the threats that have already been scientifically proven in our field:
Time since awake.
Sleep debt.
Duty limitations.
Circadian rhythm patterns.
All equally important, and all affecting not just duty days and rest periods, but commuting, show times, time zone differentials, sleep patterns before and during the pairing, uniform physiological limitations, scheduling practices, pairing construction, among others.
__________________
"There's nothing more difficult than to initiate a new order of things" -Machiavelli
Something needs to change. Train conductors have way better rest requirements than pilots. In my opinion, they also need to limit the number of legs we can do in a day. There's no way in hell that an 8-leg day is safe for anybody.
like the 14 hour, 8 leg day I did last week after a reduced rest overnight because of MX issues that kept us going late into the evening? Yea, that wasn't a good time.
1)Time since awake.
2)Sleep debt.
3)Duty limitations.
4)Circadian rhythm patterns.
All equally important, and all affecting not just duty days and rest periods, but commuting, show times, time zone differentials, sleep patterns before and during the pairing, uniform physiological limitations, scheduling practices, pairing construction, among others.
Agree about the complexity issue. I think #4 is what affects me the most, and causes #2, then tack on #3 and #1.
Having a 4 day pairing with THREE consecutive 4-430 am wakes ups (2-230 my time), and trying to go to bed at 8-9 pm local (6-7 pm my time) is a royal PITA.
My favorite are some of the studies that talk about how to deal with fatigue, especially when it says something along the lines of "try to get your body on the schedule of your trip a couple days before starting it"
What the heck am I supposed to do on my few days off?
Last edited by forumname : 09-02-2009 at 11:28 PM.
Wow, what fairyland are you living in? People HAVE been fired for calling in fatigued before. (And no, that's not the reason given.. Usually management will just wait till their next PC, say "Oh, sorry, you were a foot off at minimums, sorry, you're fired")
Correct
If management deems a pilot has become a "problem" they will certainly find a way to legally get rid of them. At least at the company Toiletduck and I work for. If they see a spike in fatigue calls in a certain pilot who commutes long distances to work, has a baby keeping him up all night, has anxiety/sleep problems from the stress of this crappy job etc, they will find a way to get rid of them. They have, in the past, fired pilots for various reasons by conveniently failing their SIM to the point where they could contractually fire the pilots. Don't put it past your wonderful airline toiletduck. If you become a problem or inconvience you are gone. It has happened before at this place. Remember, your management doesn't like you and never ever has your back.
Look fatigue isn't to be abused. If you're tired from your commute then move to base. It's your choice. I commute but I take precautions. If you have to fly early then instead of taking the redeye across the country go the night before and get a good nights sleep. Anything that increases the amount of time I spend commuting is going to increase my wear and tear. There are legitimate and non-legitimate reasons. If I'm stuck in the hotel in indy where Fedex is taking off over my window all night then I'm calling off period. I wouldn't think twice about the company being upset. If someone was conveniently failed in a sim that's news to me. I still won't be intimidated into flying when I'm not able. If I'm fatigued I'm fatigued if I'm sick then I'm sick. In my eyes it's one of the few parts of aviation that's actually black/white and not 50 shades of gray.
PS you live on the south coast? What type of fishing?
Last edited by ToiletDuck : 09-02-2009 at 11:26 PM.
Look fatigue isn't to be abused. If you're tired from your commute then move to base. It's your choice.
For many, it's not really a choice at all. You can move, but what if you're company keeps opening bases and closing them or expanding/shrinking them on a regular basis? Moving a family around constantly isn't feasible.
Not trying to further the debate on this one, but this is a reality many of us have faced.
And as mentioned before, it's not just commuters. The example of the baby is a perfect one. What if the guy with the 4pm show with a midnight or 1 am duty off had to get up at 5-6 am, help the wife with the baby, run errands, THEN go to work? He's not any better off then the guy that got up early to commute in. If anything, he's worse. The guy on the commute probably got a nap in.
For many, it's not really a choice at all. You can move, but what if you're company keeps opening bases and closing them or expanding/shrinking them on a regular basis? Moving a family around constantly isn't feasible.
Not trying to further the debate on this one, but this is a reality many of us have faced.
And as mentioned before, it's not just commuters. The example of the baby is a perfect one. What if the guy with the 4pm show with a midnight or 1 am duty off had to get up at 5-6 am, help the wife with the baby, run errands, THEN go to work? He's not any better off then the guy that got up early to commute in. If anything, he's worse. The guy on the commute probably got a nap in.
I understand perfectly where you're coming from I've commuted since day 1. I get it. But no pen and paper with a congressional stamp on the top is going to fix issues associated with the wife, baby, and errands. That's where the sick calls or FMLA time come in. That's where you just have to decide when it's time to make the fatigue call. If the company tries to take a pass at you for it then use your union and the FAA as best as possible. Some of the "solutions" being proposed aren't going to make things any better for a commuter in my opinion. Making me commute more, spend less time at home, and more time on the road doesn't seem like a better solution for me to rest and relax. I see your points and I agree with them for the most part but what I don't agree with is people acting as if there was never an option for them to not fly when they knew they shouldn't. That until congress acts their hands are tied. People basically admitting they're flying when they know they shouldn't because they heard of a guy that got on a company hit list. Sometimes it's ok to play it safe. To prove it if I don't shake this cold I have within the next 4 days I'm not going to work
I understand perfectly where you're coming from I've commuted since day 1. I get it
Me too, coming up on 10 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
But no pen and paper with a congressional stamp on the top is going to fix issues associated with the wife, baby, and errands. That's where the sick calls or FMLA time come in. That's where you just have to decide when it's time to make the fatigue call.
See what you're saying, but can somebody really use a fatigue call on day 1? How easy is it to use FMLA on a short term notice? I'm asking, I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
If the company tries to take a pass at you for it then use your union and the FAA as best as possible. Some of the "solutions" being proposed aren't going to make things any better for a commuter in my opinion. Making me commute more, spend less time at home, and more time on the road doesn't seem like a better solution for me to rest and relax.
Agree on most points. But as far as when you're away from home, which would you prefer? The 12 hour duty day with 5-6 hour flying, but 5 mind numbing hours of sit time? Or getting to the hotel early and being in your room, or having the option to work out/nap?
We have yet to see the final resolutions of whats going to come out of this whole thing.I can tell you this, I'm all for shorter duty days and longer rest periods.
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