I believe all APD (Air Program Designees) are able to do ATP checkrides, so the next time you go for your PC he or she (your airline checkairman) will also perform an ATP checkride.
Mason, where is your proof on this, or is this what you were told, or interpreted on your own. Because I have been told something different by local FSDO. I really think their may be some differing opinion between FSDO and POI's, but I know there are guys out there with ATP's that had less than 250PIC but a crapload of SIC time when they went and recieved their ATP.
As you say, the current FAA allows each FSDO alot of lattitude, and if you have been around aviation long enough, I'm sure you may have even run across issues where one FSDO approves something only to be told later while in another region that your ticket, or your airplane are not airworthy, and the other FSDO made a mistake... I HAVE seen this happen personally, so I'm my own proof. The time I saw it was on a private plane with an IFR GPS installed and approved by a certain FSDO in accordance with an Advisor Circular guidance... the plane ended up in another part of the country years later, and during a prepurchase inspection, the IA didn't like the way the paperwork was done and brought the issue to the local FSDO for an opinion, who promptly grounded the aircraft... so, it DOES happen.
That all being said, how much simpler does it have to be. This reg says "performing the duties of PIC." The duties of PIC are not simply flying an airplane and programming an autopilot. The PIC signs the release, accepting the aircraft, the preflight planning, the load planning, and the physical fitness for duty of the crew... a FO does none of these things; hence you are not performing the duties of PIC.
That section is for people who are performing all the duties of PIC (baby Captains) that are technically not PIC of the flight, the IOE Instructor is.....
just as in the old days when (if) you ever flight instructed.... as CFI you were the PIC of the flight, your student logged PIC as the manipulator of the controls... and this reg does not say anything about logging PIC time as sole manipulator, it says by performing the duties of PIC, which FO's do not do.
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But SIC's can also use it to accumulate time which counts toward ATP PIC requirements, as long as everyone agrees that they are allowed to practice being the PIC under the supervision of the actual PIC (at an airline you would need formal permission from the chain of command IMO). Very similar to being on IOE. The time is NOT loggable as PIC of any sort however, it is simply SIC which can be applied to the ATP requirements.
You are incorrect, see my further explanation of why an FO can not act as PIC in a previous post...
The duties of PIC include signing the release. An FO can not do that, what about that do you not understand?
You should have been a lawyer for Clinton arguing over the meaning of the word "is." You can twist it anyway you want, "performing the duties of PIC" requires you to sign the release, and that isn't happening.
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I believe all APD (Air Program Designees) are able to do ATP checkrides, so the next time you go for your PC he or she (your airline checkairman) will also perform an ATP checkride.
Not all check airman/sim instructors have APD authority.
It's rare at my company to do a PC with one of our 8-9 APD's.
Not all check airman/sim instructors have APD authority.
It's rare at my company to do a PC with one of our 8-9 APD's.
Thats true, we only had like 3 APDs on the Dash-8 -- it will just have to be scheduled out. Not like there will be that many initial PCs done (and only APDs can do those) so they shouldn't be too busy, unless something weird happens and people start to hire again.
You are incorrect, see my further explanation of why an FO can not act as PIC in a previous post...
The duties of PIC include signing the release. An FO can not do that, what about that do you not understand?
You should have been a lawyer for Clinton arguing over the meaning of the word "is." You can twist it anyway you want, "performing the duties of PIC" requires you to sign the release, and that isn't happening.
It all comes down to interpretation of that phrase about "performing the duties of PIC". I have worked at one airline where FO's did they did exactly what I described...they had a lot of low-timers who couldn't quite upgrade because they were not ATP eligible. It's possible that the CA had to be an LCA, I can't recall. Maybe different POI's have different interpretations?
EDIT: Actually what you are saying makes no sense at all...
This allowance is for people who are apllying for an ATP....by definition, this means they DO NOT YET HAVE AN ATP. How can you be an airline CA of any sort (baby, IOE, etc) without an ATP? You cannot...you need to qualify for the ATP BEFORE you go do IOE.
The 61.159(a)(4) clause is only useful for SIC's...
I think you are confusing this with the 1200 PIC requirement for ICAO?
Its rather difficult to complete the ATP-required taxiing task without access to the tiller, no?
Ahhhh, you got my question.
For those who didn't, I am asking ...
Billy has met all of the other requirements for an ATP EXCEPT for the practical test. Can he take the practical test while acting as an SIC, sitting in the right seat? Wouldn't he be required to fly from the CA seat (something which presumably would require additional training ie. upgrade training)?
(And for those who care, I got my ATP on a paper certificate. I am asking because I never had this issue come up as an instructor.)
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Billy has met all of the other requirements for an ATP EXCEPT for the practical test. Can he take the practical test while acting as an SIC, sitting in the right seat? Wouldn't he be required to fly from the CA seat (something which presumably would require additional training ie. upgrade training)?
No, he cannot take an ATP ride while acting or sitting as SIC. If your ATP ride is being done in a type which requires two pilots, the applicant has to sit in the left seat if that is the the PIC seat.
If all duties can be performed from either seat it would not matter, technically. Many airplanes have a tiller on both sides. Some commercial applicants do their commercial prep and even take the checkride from the right seat to prepare for their CFI ride. But I doubt you would ever see that at an airline...no reason.
Upgrading airline pilots take their ATP ride in the sim, not a real airplane (if they don't already have an ATP).
This is ridiculous...the only thing that an SIC can do as far as the ATP goes is build time: total, night, XC, etc.
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